Torn between two lovers - F1 v's CART

[Wrex]

Having just finished watching the opening round of the CART championship at Mexico (thankyou channel 10 for the DELAYED telecast) and can't help but compare F1 & CART as individual formula's. The way I see it is this, I'm crazy about ladies but for entirely different reasons.

The Lady F1 is absolutely stunning to look at and independently wealthy. Her favourite cars, like me, are beautiful beasts such as Ferrari's, Mercedes & BMW's, and a long list of greats exist in the family tree such as, Stewart, Fangio, Senna & Prost, but this comes with a few short comings.

She has very strong family traditions which prevent her from trying new things, and she's always telling me to slow down. She has the most irretating relatives (uncle Bernie & uncle Max) and the only one I really like, her grandfather Murray, is becoming incoherrant & forgetfull. The family can be very snobbish too, keeping out those who dont have enourmous fortunes, and letting those in who have the right pedegree. I can't help but feel our relationship has become, well, predictable. Yet there I am every second Sunday cancelling all other social outings so I can be by her side once again.

Then there is Ms CART. Not as attractive to look at, and from the poorer side of town (well upper middle class), but alot more fun to be with. She is a bit of a tom boy, unpredicable, exciting, and every time I see her I can be sure I wont fall asleep.

On the down side however, she does have that annoying acsent, and at times I feel we just keep going round in circles (sorry ovals). She is a little to keen on Ford's & Toyota's for my liking, and her driving force seems to be more mature than the lady F1.

I can't help but feel a little unfaithful to F1 while gallavanting around with Ms CART, and I cannot give up either one. Why ladies & gent's can I not have F1, my true love, become alot more like Ms CART.

Accepting the fact that I am a complete idiot on technical STUFF, what is the difference between these two that allows CART to be exciting, with multiple winners, hundreds of passes and lead changes, and a championship with potentially 5 different winners at the last race? What could F1 change to add this eliment of excitement?


WREX

PS No I'm not having problems in my personal life & If she tells you that she's lying & sorry for the long post.

[Holly]

Heh heh! You put it so well! I would have to choose F1, but only cos I dont think I really have a choice. I dont know if we show CART over here, if we do I think its on at 5.30 on a saturday morning, which is not my finest hour!

[enemy-ace]

love the analogy WREX. My answer to make F1 a more tempting lady is to take some of her allowance away. Budget restrictions i think would allow some of the smaller teams to compete. Maybe without all the flash and glamour Lady F1 would have to give us a little action to keep us.

[EERO]

Amusing analogy, Wrex. As A Yank, I admit that the local girls have their appeal, but I have a real passion for sultry and sophisticated women from exotic places.

Now as far as the differences between CART and F1 are concerned, several factors keep the racing close in CART. I'm sure some one will log-on with all the details, but I'll take a stab at an overview. Though the Champcars are Turbcharged, boost is regulated so that the differences between the engines are not about power, but issues of reliability and drivebility. These are factors that a really skilled driver can have some measure of control over. Wide cars with fat slicks and some ground effects, allow the the cars to race more closely together without the unreasonable fear of having the the trailing car become dangerously unstable. (I also believe that CART uses Steel and not Carbon Fiber brakes, though I could be mistaken).

Another significant factor is the use of the Pace or Safety Car. The Pace car comes out for almost every yellow flag incident, allowing the cars to bunch up and negating any advantage a fast leader might have established. As pit stops are made under Yellow flags, some teams seem to be more willing to gamble on building up a mid-race advantage with the hope that a late race incident might play-out in their favor.

[Gt_R]

Take away the Pace car for Cart and on the street circuits, you would find that racing would be very much like F1 after 15laps.

[Gt_R]

Sorry, to relate it to your analogy...

Take away the clothes of Ms Cart, and you would find that below those dresses lies the same physical bodies as in Ms F1~

[KC]

I totally agree with your analogy. I love F1 and CART. I totally enjoyed Silverstone last year. I also loved the Houston GP for the first two years as well. CART will never have the tradition and glamour of F1, but it will have tough and close competition. F1 probably will never have that same level of competition throughout the field but it does have the exclusivity and history.

I am curious about something. What do the European fans expect to see and get from auto racing versus what the American fans expect? Do the European fans of F1 expect to see just 2 or maybe three drivers and cars contend? Or would they expect to see 6 teams and drivers doing the same? I cannot speak for all American fans, but I can say that I think most Americans expect to see the underdog occasionally pull one off. I don't want this to become some sort of stereotyping issue, but I think that F1 has been the same way for so long that many people just expect it to be a two way battle and realistically expect the slower teams like Sauber or BAR to never really contend. While I think that most fans in America are not surprised by one or two team domination of a series, but do expect to see teams like PacWest or Herdez Bettenhausen at least stand a chance to have their turn at the front. Am I way off base here?

[EERO]

KC, I think you are right. The CanAm was killed off by being first the "Bruce and Denny Show", (Later the Peter and Denny Show) then the Penske Porsches dominated and finally the Shadows in 1974.
The old Contintental Ghampionship for F5000, always the poor sister of the SCCA's professional series became appealing as competition improved, finally to merge with USAC and spawn CART. I would much rather see a gifted underdog take a victory than to see the usual parade.

My favorite years of Formula 1 are the seventies, where a season would begin with unexpected results; Jarier's two Poles for Shadow in 1975,or John Watson's first win for Penske. James Hunt winning for Hesketh; Beltoise's brilliant wet Monaco Victory in 1972.
The following two lists are off the top of my head so I suspect there will be ommissions, but

GP winners of the 1970's (28)
Brabham, Stewart, Rindt, Ickx, Reggazoni, Rodriguez, Fittipaldi, Andretti, Siffert , Gethin, Cevert, Beltoise, Peterson, Hulme, Revson, Lauda, Scheckter, Hunt, Reutemann, Pace, Watson, Brambilla, Nilsson, Laffite, G. Villeneuve, A Jones, Jabouille, Depailler

GP Winners of the 1990's (17)
Prost, Senna, Mansell, Piquet, Patrese, Nannini, Schumacher, Hill, Berger, Herbert, Coulthard, Alesi, J. Villeneuve, Panis, Frentzen, Hakkinen, Irvine

Clearly, there was more variety in the past and I think that it was a lot more fun to watch.

[Speed]

2000 GP Winners (4)

Schumacher, Hakkinen, Coulthard, Barrichello

[KC]

True. There were three clear contenders for the title and then it got whittled down to two when Coulthard fell out of the hunt. But in other series, such as the World Rally Championship, a dark horse came up from nowhere to challenge the established front runners last year and took the title from them. I think some of that unpredictability needs to be injected into the F1 WDC chase. Imagine if it were Olivier Panis who had won that race, or Nick Heidfeld. What would we be chatting about right now? I think that F1 has gotten into a rut where it takes drastic mistakes from a few drivers or teams to even produce a glimmer of hope for the rest of the field. The top two or three teams cannot be relied upon to continuosly make those mistakes. To me that is a shame that a BAR or Sauber or Williams or Jordan pilot must rely on McLaren and Ferrari to give them the victory than be able to take it from them. I do beleive that F1 is the pinnacle, but it is really only for a few well-funded and well-connected teams instead of the entire grid. Whereas, an extraordinary driver for a competent team can take the fight to the front as we saw Marcus Gronholm do last year.

[Wrex]

I'm having trouble here.

I don't understand why two world class open wheeler catagories, can be so different action wise. How does CART have so many different winners, but still come up with a fair result.

Arguably, Gannasi Racing was the dominant team from 96-99 (Vassa, Zinardi, Montoya), yet there were so many different winners during those seasons. I don't want F1 to become a series where luck is the major factor, through pace car manipulation & gambled pit stategies. The best prepared, consistant, and most talented team/driver should win the championship, but not every race.

I liked watching the cars move around so much in Mexico, and miss the days when Senna, Prost & co. wrestled a car through the corners, but thats an old & different thread.

Allow me to endulge myself for a moment with some idea's I have heard and like.

1. Ban 'fuel' pit stops completly. Starting with more fuel will challenge the driver from start to finish as the balance of the car changes. A car fast at the start may slow down towards the end making a race less predictable. Add this to the tyre war, and things become very interesting. Tyre Changes only

2. Ban testing during the season - This will help out 'poorer' teams. Then add 4-6 hours extra practice over race weekend. Better for fans & Sponsors

3. Super-Pole - After qualifying, a super pole for top 10 or 12. Granted generally the grid won't change often, but it would introduce a new element for the skilled driver, great spectical, and would'nt it be great to watch a great driver come through the feild after a super pole stuff-up.

4. Return of slicks - Don't need to comment here

5. Reduced Wing Size's and aerodynamics

6. A Regulated wing package for all teams with only 5 differnt downforce settings

7. All engine suppliers must supply 2 teams with the same engines (not previous years models)

8. One tyre compound chosen for the entire season. This would make differnt races stronger for different teams. However, any compound can be used for qualifying.

I have now doubt that the Ferrari's & the Mac's would still come out on top, which they should, but it would make each individual race more exciting, and allow exposure for lesser teams - thus more money to close the gap.

I'm sure there is something wrong with all of the above (or it would already exist) so please don't blungeon me to death. I would appreciate your input, alterations, or additions to these idea's.

Wrex

[EERO]

From my earlier lists, I had ommitted Jochen Mass's Half-points victory in the 1975 Spanish GP.
From the 90's list, Thierry Boutsen.

The corretc totals are 29 and 18.

[Wrex]

Oh, and one more;

9. Change the points. I wanna see drivers BATTLING for 10th, not a procession from 7th back.

[enemy-ace]

how about this for pit stops. do like the sportscars do and make the teams have to split refueling and changing tyres within the same stop. some teams may make a gamble and go for one over the other to save time ie. fuel over tyres or vice-versa. this would or could alter strategies significantly.

[Liz]

As Alain Prost said recently and as I have said since the 1980s, bring back the cars of the 1970s and the Real Men that drove them. The 1979 Long Beach Grid is my standard for racing. Drop anybody (and I mean you TGF) in the current field onto that grid and he'd be a blip for two laps and then he'd be gone. Poor kids, they do their best with what they are offered, but expensive RC cars are not exciting unless you have never seen anything else.

To continue the analogy, the difficulty with Ms. F1 is that when a lady has always had everything her own way and enough money and attention to allow her to meet all her needs and most of her caprices, she becomes insular and selfish and has no clear understanding of anything outside her own little world. (See Audrey Hepburn movies for more detail.) Take away her bodyguards, her exclusive and exclusionary access, and the requirement for a huge bank balance in order to play with her, and she'd be Champ Cars.

[angst]

Patrick Head recently said that the team owners had almost unanimously agreed to a CART type aerodynamics package, but one team vetoed this. This shows that the team owners understand there is a problem with the current state of F1. Almost all the individuals involved in F1 who have been asked have been dead set against the re-introduction of TRAX, but say that F1 has no coice. They are heading down the wrong road and the majority of them know it, but nobody seems able to stop the steamroller.
It's time Max showed the sort of strong leadership that is required here, and here is my solution.
F1 should take on board CART regs wholesale, with the proviso that the teams (as currently) have to produce their own chassis and enter two car teams throughout the season.
This would increase the competitiveness of F1, would negate the re-introduction of TRAX, would allow us to see overtaking on a regular basis, watch drivers work and slide the cars and would also open up the possibilities for F1 in America, as somecross-polenation would be inevitable.
Because alot of manufacturers are already involved in CART there wouldn't be too much uproar about the engine regs, and because of the pop-off valves the power (read speed) of the cars could be regulated by the simple act of reducing turbo pressure (as CART have done).
I'm sure there are many objections that I haven't thought of, but I look forward to seeing what these are.

[TimD]

There was I, not going to say anything into this thread, and then Liz goes to mention

Audrey Hepburn.

mmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm