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Old 13 Mar 2018, 17:29 (Ref:3807770)   #466
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
It's what it was and it didn't. Sorry but making it so technical has created the problem.
it was actually an innocent question about your suggestion. i'll repeat it in a different way - how in your opinion would that go if they went that way for 2019 with current team structures? with the testing rig and dyno setups the big guys use wouldn't it just continue the arms race as per usual? or would you imagine some sort of resource restriction to go along with that?

don't get me wrong, i love the idea of engineering freedom and it'd move things forward far quicker than the current status quo. but i can't see how it'd work now we've opened pandora's box.
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Old 13 Mar 2018, 18:28 (Ref:3807777)   #467
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I see your point and agree it will never happen. We are, to coin a phrase, "too pregnant". Having got here the only way is further down.

As you suggest too many jobs rely on this farce and nobody is going to put people on the streets. But this is what happens when you legislate against competition.
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Old 13 Mar 2018, 20:36 (Ref:3807801)   #468
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Other Renault's are reliable, so it has to be installation issues with McLaren surely?
Renault have confirmed that they are having issues with the thermal conditions of installing the engine.

Perhaps McLaren had pushed this a bit further than others? Isn't that what testing is for though?
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Old 13 Mar 2018, 21:52 (Ref:3807807)   #469
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I see your point and agree it will never happen. We are, to coin a phrase, "too pregnant". Having got here the only way is further down.

As you suggest too many jobs rely on this farce and nobody is going to put people on the streets. But this is what happens when you legislate against competition.
The conundrum is that if nothing is done to legislate the Mercedes dominance, F1 will go the same way that CanAm (which had no rules - comparatively) went when Porsche decided to outspend and out tech everybody else in the series. We are already seeing the fans and sponsors walking away, so the beginnings of the end are clearly evident.

How many good series have manufacturers ruined by coming in and absolutely dominating? CanAm, Champcar, Touring Cars ...

Lack of action through being "too pregnant" seems to be the highest risk approach, the inevitable collapse caused by pursuing the current path will lead to far more unemployment when the series collapses.
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Old 13 Mar 2018, 22:03 (Ref:3807812)   #470
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Ferrari would have parted ways with Kimi a couple of seasons ago...but they have no incentive to do so.
To be fair on Kimi, he was far better last year and would have had the same amount of wins as Bottas had, if Ferrari had allowed it.
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Old 13 Mar 2018, 22:13 (Ref:3807818)   #471
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The conundrum is that if nothing is done to legislate the Mercedes dominance, F1 will go the same way that CanAm (which had no rules - comparatively) went when Porsche decided to outspend and out tech everybody else in the series. We are already seeing the fans and sponsors walking away, so the beginnings of the end are clearly evident.

How many good series have manufacturers ruined by coming in and absolutely dominating? CanAm, Champcar, Touring Cars ...

Lack of action through being "too pregnant" seems to be the highest risk approach, the inevitable collapse caused by pursuing the current path will lead to far more unemployment when the series collapses.
I would hate to see dominance of any team legislated. I would rather another team come along and knock Mercedes off their perch. However, if by legislating you mean rule changes, I'm all for that because something needs to be done, as the racing is dull and the Mercedes dominance boring.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 00:22 (Ref:3807842)   #472
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I would hate to see dominance of any team legislated. I would rather another team come along and knock Mercedes off their perch. However, if by legislating you mean rule changes, I'm all for that because something needs to be done, as the racing is dull and the Mercedes dominance boring.
I'm all for changes that would bring about a fairer financial playing field by ripping up the nonsense that sees some teams being paid for being who they are rather than for what they are doing.
That said when did this idea that F1 was "monotonous" gain credence?
The racing is fast, reliable, interesting technically and gradually getting even better.
If you follow the sport for as long as I have we have had periods of domination. We have seen once mighty names disappear. It will, or should keep happening unless we allow the teams to legislate themselves a dictator like lifetime power structure. No team is indispensable.
Fairer distribution of money, rules that encourage development rather than stifle or channel it up blind alleys, and an even broader manufacturer involvement might not increase the number of passes per race, but would certainly broaden the fan base.
The FIA, Liberty and the teams should all have a vested interest in ensuring this happens with the renegotiation of the Concord and the setting of the technical rules post 2021.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 00:50 (Ref:3807845)   #473
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I would hate to see dominance of any team legislated. I would rather another team come along and knock Mercedes off their perch. However, if by legislating you mean rule changes, I'm all for that because something needs to be done, as the racing is dull and the Mercedes dominance boring.
Terrible phrasing on my part, I mean rule changes yes.

The current dominance was effectively reinforced when the axle weights were legislated and the teams were forced to run the KERS and ERS systems instead of the more performance effective (for some) ballast.
Even better also take 200 kg off the min weight of the cars and make KERS and ERS optional.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 01:52 (Ref:3807850)   #474
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Originally Posted by Oldtony View Post
I'm all for changes that would bring about a fairer financial playing field by ripping up the nonsense that sees some teams being paid for being who they are rather than for what they are doing.
That said when did this idea that F1 was "monotonous" gain credence?
The racing is fast, reliable, interesting technically and gradually getting even better.
If you follow the sport for as long as I have we have had periods of domination. We have seen once mighty names disappear. It will, or should keep happening unless we allow the teams to legislate themselves a dictator like lifetime power structure. No team is indispensable.
Fairer distribution of money, rules that encourage development rather than stifle or channel it up blind alleys, and an even broader manufacturer involvement might not increase the number of passes per race, but would certainly broaden the fan base.
The FIA, Liberty and the teams should all have a vested interest in ensuring this happens with the renegotiation of the Concord and the setting of the technical rules post 2021.
I don't know how long you have been following F1 but I believe it's probably longer than most people on Ten Tenths? My first race was the Daily Express Trophy in 1973 at Silverstone. I was 12 at the time and I've been hooked ever since. I agree with you about having a fairer financial playing field but I would hope legislation would be the last recourse.

True, there have been other periods of domination. Before Mercedes it was quite recently Red Bull and Vettel, though two of those Vettel WDCs went down to the wire in 2010 and 2012, with Alonso the runner up on both occasions. Since Mercedes have dominated, no other team/driver combination has come close. Prior to Mercedes and Red Bull, the last time a team totally dominated like that was Ferrari with Schumacher. I actually stopped watching F1 during that period because it became monotonous and I think it's becoming so again and I don't think I'm the only one. Otherwise in the past, teams/drivers have dominated for about two seasons in a row but nothing like we have seen recently.

I still find it technically interesting, especially as the rules are so rigid it leaves little room for innovation and teams have to find solutions to produce a faster car. Therefore I too would also like to see development encouraged rather than stifled. F1 is more reliable but I do miss the attritional aspect.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 01:53 (Ref:3807851)   #475
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Terrible phrasing on my part, I mean rule changes yes.

The current dominance was effectively reinforced when the axle weights were legislated and the teams were forced to run the KERS and ERS systems instead of the more performance effective (for some) ballast.
Even better also take 200 kg off the min weight of the cars and make KERS and ERS optional.
I thought rule changing is what you meant and I think that needs to happen.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 07:11 (Ref:3807870)   #476
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The following table details teams who scoring victories in more than 75% of the races in a season. The number of points scored out of the total possible points (1st and 2nd in every race)
I included RBR’s most dominant season 2013 (when everybody was concentrating on the “new hybrid formula” and Mercedes 2017 campaign where they won 60% of the races but still managed to score 73% of a perfect score, the points that would be earned from finishing 1st and 2nd in every race in the season.


F1 dominance, teams winning more than 75% of the races in a season since 1986.

1988 McLaren won 15 of 16 races 93% scoring 199 of 240 points 83%.
1996 Williams won 12 of 16 races 75% scoring 175 of 256 points 68%.
2002 Ferrari won 15 of 17 races 88% scoring 221 of 272 points 81%.
2004 Ferrari won 16 of 18 races 89% scoring 262 of 324 points 81%.
2013 Red Bull won 13 of 19 races 68% scoring 596 of 874 points 68%.*
2014 Mercedes won 16 of 19 races 84% scoring 701 of 874 points 80%.
2015 Mercedes won 16 of 19 races 84% scoring 703 of 874 points 80%.
2016 Mercedes won 19 of 21 races 90% scoring 765 of 966 points 79%.
2017 Mercedes won 12 of 20 races 60% scoring 668 of 920 points 73%.*
Not over 75% Race wins included for interest.

Conclusion, last five years have thrown up a pretty ordinary competition.
Just in case somebody thinks Ferrari and RBR dominance was worse than the current Mercedes problem!
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 07:58 (Ref:3807881)   #477
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I seem to remember AutoSport did a similar exercise a couple of years ago based on wins, podiums, fastest laps etc and Mercedes was quite a way ahead and that was without the last couple of seasons.

For me that's the biggest difference with Mercedes against Red Bull and Ferrari. It's been the team not one driver for all but one season. If Rosberg had still been in the car would Vettel have had as many chances last year?
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 10:02 (Ref:3807908)   #478
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I think we have to be thankful Merc have let their drivers race or it could have been even worse
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 11:45 (Ref:3807932)   #479
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It's the global car manufacturers who've inadvertently ruined F1.

They should be restricted to engine supply only. This will immediately reduce budgets, probably increase engine choice and place more emphasis on car/chassis innovation.

The more the FIA try to legislate for equality the more unequal the sport gets.
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Old 14 Mar 2018, 12:18 (Ref:3807941)   #480
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It's the global car manufacturers who've inadvertently ruined F1.

They should be restricted to engine supply only. This will immediately reduce budgets, probably increase engine choice and place more emphasis on car/chassis innovation.

The more the FIA try to legislate for equality the more unequal the sport gets.
Aren't global car manufacturers heading in droves to FE?
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