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Old 10 Jun 2020, 10:24 (Ref:3988335)   #1
V8 Fireworks
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Is it time to award the ATCC & Bathurst 1000 for TCR?

Many people are saying that the Australian Touring Car Championship Group 3A Supercars "party" is over.

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Originally Posted by 275 GTB-4 View Post
So sad to see a series that has gone close to beyond its remit...and people still want to hold on for parochial reasons...
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Originally Posted by Casper View Post
Some people do not realse the party is over because the guests have left they being the domestic manufacturers and the four door family car is nearly extinct.
In that case it would seem logical that the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000 titles instead be contested by ARG's TCR Australia touring car series.

Thoughts?
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Old 10 Jun 2020, 12:08 (Ref:3988336)   #2
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When Supercars falls over, it is logical that TCR becomes the new holder of the ATCC. Until that time, Supercars have a contractual arrangement that they contest the ATCC.

The Bathurst 1000 is an easier proposition. Just get a race weekend there, run a 1000k race, and convince everyone that yours was the original one.
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Old 10 Jun 2020, 18:19 (Ref:3988337)   #3
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You can't compare a 500hp V8 RWD car to a 300hp inline-4 FWD car.
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Old 11 Jun 2020, 02:54 (Ref:3988338)   #4
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Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks View Post
Many people are saying that the Australian Touring Car Championship Group 3A Supercars "party" is over.





In that case it would seem logical that the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000 titles instead be contested by ARG's TCR Australia touring car series.

Thoughts?
Arent you burying a body that still has a pulse?
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Old 11 Jun 2020, 04:43 (Ref:3988339)   #5
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In that case it would seem logical that the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000 titles instead be contested by ARG's TCR Australia touring car series.
A bit premature there aren't you?

You're talking about a series where the promoter still owns more than half the cars and are propping up the rest and if the wind blows in a different direction TCR would disappear just as quickly as GT-P did. It is eerily similar.

Also a series that is being splintered from within by eTCR. VW & Audi won't be the last to go.

Other than Honda and Hyundai nobody else is really serious about it, the rest of the cars quite literally wouldn't make 1/4 race distance at Bathurst. Hell the Subi was a basket case when it was new, and the Astras are orphaned, and the Audi and Golf unfortunately will fall away from being competitive as the existing cars get updates.

GRM's cars show flashes of speed but don't finish races anywhere.

The Lynk and Co will win WTCR again and I bet fold up their tent without being BoP'ed in any national series.

GRM, Wall Racing and HMO put on a show, but they are not prime time anything.
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Old 12 Jun 2020, 08:46 (Ref:3988340)   #6
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The Bathurst 1000 is an easier proposition. Just get a race weekend there, run a 1000k race, and convince everyone that yours was the original one.
Spot on, couldn’t have said it better

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Originally Posted by Mixer
You're talking about a series where the promoter still owns more than half the cars and are propping up the rest and if the wind blows in a different direction TCR would disappear just as quickly as GT-P did. It is eerily similar
The part-owners of Supercars have been propping up the grid to various degrees for 24 years to varying degrees haven’t they?
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Old 12 Jun 2020, 08:57 (Ref:3988341)   #7
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Err well the part owners of Supercars are the teams themselves so it's kind of a ridiculous assertion really. Supercars has never owned or purchased cars or paid contracted teams to run cars and pretend they owned them off their own bat....

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Old 12 Jun 2020, 21:23 (Ref:3988342)   #8
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I liked TEAM SYDNEY's COCA COLA car...
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Old 13 Jun 2020, 00:39 (Ref:3988343)   #9
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I liked TEAM SYDNEY's COCA COLA car...
Well played.
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Old 14 Jun 2020, 21:16 (Ref:3988344)   #10
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There is no comparison. All these years of ATCC + more than 20 years of Supercars is the heritage of VASC while TCR Australia is just some poor national championship that is part of global regulations made for cheap racing, which have their own 'top' championship - WTCR. Supercars are way more exciting and better racing cars than TCR and winning Supercars means that you really ARE Australian Touring Car Champion. Winning TCR Australia means winning just some national championship of minor importance.
Should I go on?
Okay, I understand, Supercars is now in a difficult situation but it is just time for a change, not to pretend the championship is now dead and unimportant. TCR Australia could be on its support bill as a feeder series but as long as Supercars exists this will be the premier motorsport category in Australia.
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 08:29 (Ref:3988345)   #11
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There is no comparison. All these years of ATCC + more than 20 years of Supercars is the heritage of VASC while TCR Australia is just some poor national championship that is part of global regulations made for cheap racing, which have their own 'top' championship - WTCR. Supercars are way more exciting and better racing cars than TCR and winning Supercars means that you really ARE Australian Touring Car Champion. Winning TCR Australia means winning just some national championship of minor importance.
Should I go on?
Okay, I understand, Supercars is now in a difficult situation but it is just time for a change, not to pretend the championship is now dead and unimportant. TCR Australia could be on its support bill as a feeder series but as long as Supercars exists this will be the premier motorsport category in Australia.
How does the ATCC lose any stature just because the ruleset might be used overseas?

When the ATCC used Group A regulations, Group A had their “top tier” ETCC and WTCC, did that lesson the importance of the ATCC?
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 09:03 (Ref:3988346)   #12
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I'm not saying this is the only reason but it adds to it all. Yes, in the past we had what we had but it was the past. By saying TCR is global I wanted to highlight that the ruleset is just created for some minor national championships and I can't really imagine TCR Australia getting more important than Supercars and the ruleset is one of the reasons.
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 11:21 (Ref:3988347)   #13
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I'm not saying this is the only reason but it adds to it all. Yes, in the past we had what we had but it was the past. By saying TCR is global I wanted to highlight that the ruleset is just created for some minor national championships and I can't really imagine TCR Australia getting more important than Supercars and the ruleset is one of the reasons.
WTCR is the only touring car category that does have World Cup Status.
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 12:07 (Ref:3988348)   #14
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And what does it add to TCR Aus vs Supercars discussion? We talk about ATCC title, not the world championship status. But truth is, in my opinion, winning Supercars means more than winning WTCR in which barely anyone is interested. Definitely it means more than winning TCR Australia, that's for sure.
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 12:29 (Ref:3988349)   #15
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As long as Supercars exists this will be the premier motorsport category in Australia.
It would help if there was only one touring car category. Splitting entrants across the Australian Touring Car Championship and the Austalian Super Touring Championship weakened both categories... The quality of the ATCC increased considerably when teams like Brad Jones Racing and Paul Morris Motorsports (formerly LoGaMo Racing / BMW Motorsport Australia) came back into the field.

The quality of the TCR Australia series would likely rise in a similar way, if many of the teams and sponsors come across to affordable TCR from a defunct overly expensive Supercars series.

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winning Supercars means more than winning WTCR in which barely anyone is interested. Definitely it means more than winning TCR Australia, that's for sure.
You're presuming that Supercars will continue to exist, which is exactly the troublesome point!

You said so yourself...

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I think it's unlikely to see any of them entering at the moment...
So no new manufactuers and just Ford vs Ford:

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If there are only Mustangs then I'm probably not that interested.
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I doubt Ford would be interested either.
Resulting in the inevitable conclusion:

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The reality is it [Supercars] has no future commercially and once Archer get out who has the capital to support it?
Supercars was and is so reliant on General Motors Holden, that very soon when Holden no longer exists, it will cast doubt on the very existence of the Supercars category.

Meanwhile TCR is reasonably cost effective touring car racing with a wide variety of brands. It's arguably the perfect category for the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000km race. The cars are a bit slow and sound bad, but that doesn't matter if the on-track action and battles are good -- having an influx of high quality teams, drivers and sponsors from Supercars would very much help that cause.

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You can't compare a 500hp V8 RWD car to a 300hp inline-4 FWD car.
The latter is still a touring car and represents a variety of vehicles you might actually buy. Mustang GT sales aren't nearly as numerous as four cylinder econobox (sports version or economy version) sales, as Mustang GTs are just a bit too impractical and use too much fuel for most people.
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Old 15 Jun 2020, 15:39 (Ref:3988350)   #16
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You're presuming that Supercars will continue to exist, which is exactly the troublesome point!

You said so yourself...
Yes, I am presuming that Supercars will continue to exist because I still believe that there is a chance for a championship like this. Yeah, I can't see Hyundai/Kia joining now but it doesn't mean I think Supercars will become Ford only. Yes, I fear it a bit but I think we have still 2021 for Holdens and then who knows what can happen. Times are hard but no one said it's over.

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So no new manufactuers and just Ford vs Ford
I didn't say it, I commented only about Hyundai/Ford.

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Supercars was and is so reliant on General Motors Holden, that very soon when Holden no longer exists, it will cast doubt on the very existence of the Supercars category.
There is, sadly, truth in it, although never say never. Triple Eight and/or Walkinshaw may do something with Chevrolet and still it's not completely impossible to see BMW, for example, in whatever capacity.

Quote:
Meanwhile TCR is reasonably cost effective touring car racing with a wide variety of brands. It's arguably the perfect category for the Australian Touring Car Championship and Bathurst 1000km race. The cars are a bit slow and sound bad, but that doesn't matter if the on-track action and battles are good -- having an influx of high quality teams, drivers and sponsors from Supercars would very much help that cause.
I disagree. Okay, it's cheap and the category as a whole is quite healthy comparing to Supercars but after so many years of fast and powerful cars, ATCC switching championships to TCR would be a bit laughable and disappointing. Bathurst 1000 with TCR cars? A bore fest.
Of course this is my view but I just don't think TCR is a good solution for championships like Supercars or even BTCC in Britain. Once again, this is only my personal view, but if Supercars ceased to exist and TCR would become ATCC then I would lose interest in it completely. Australia is far far away from me after all
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 01:32 (Ref:3988351)   #17
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Ignoring all the motorsport problems in the class such as type of cars etc which is always the topic of conversation, if it does not make sense commercially then there is no future. Two issues there, Archer getting out and the media returns going through the floor so the BUSINESS model does not make sense any longer. Things have changed in the last decade and the environment SC used to depend on for its existance no longer exists. The changes everyone thinks are needed are in fact minor issues in the whole thing.
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 10:48 (Ref:3988352)   #18
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ATCC switching championships to TCR would be a bit laughable and disappointing. Bathurst 1000 with TCR cars? A bore
Was the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 laughable and a borefest when Group C was dropped for the slower and more standard looking Group A?
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 11:08 (Ref:3988353)   #19
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Is TCR the same as Group A?
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Old 16 Jun 2020, 12:11 (Ref:3988354)   #20
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Was the ATCC and Bathurst 1000 laughable and a borefest when Group C was dropped for the slower and more standard looking Group A?
Did some people think so in 1985?

Absolutely.

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Old 16 Jun 2020, 13:04 (Ref:3988355)   #21
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Time will tell, I think TCR cars are boring - adversely to Group A because Group A was slow but still more exciting than TCR. In my opinion Supercars are a great platform and it's astonishing to me because in Europe there so many racing fans who think this is one of the best series in the world while Australians keep moaning.
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 01:52 (Ref:3988356)   #22
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Did some people think so in 1985?

Absolutely.
Then some people were quite hard to please

The 1985 James Hardie 1000 is one of the best ‘unfiltered’ 1000km races ever held at the mountain, and at the time was the best race in years
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 02:21 (Ref:3988357)   #23
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You have rose coloured glasses. We went from sexy, noisy Group C cars to slow, unreliable, naked cars and it took a while for Group A to hit its straps.

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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:01 (Ref:3988358)   #24
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so many racing fans who think this is one of the best series in the world while Australians keep moaning.
It has potential. It was great in the BA Falcon and VF Commodore days. It was still solid in the FGX Falcon and VF Commodore days, albeit the field was getting a bit small (and still is), and ticket prices are too expensive in order to prop up the RECs (and still are, $250 for a four-day ticket for example).

However now, they are racing a mutant Mustang and an obsolete Holden Insignia, they have no commitments from any manufacturers for 2022 onwards, they have no plans on technical regulations going onwards... It's far from ideal IMO.

Some of the racers' racers are still here like your Joneses, Kellys, Johnsons & Walkinshaws which is good (others like the Morrises, Mundays, and Rogers however, have given it away), but are they provided with any vision from management on where the category will be in five years time?
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Old 17 Jun 2020, 08:05 (Ref:3988359)   #25
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I can't believe the number of people throwing dirt on a breathing body and calling it a corpse. Are Supercars in a bit of trouble? No doubt. But it could take a few decisions and all of a sudden their commercial model could be brought back under control, WITHOUT requiring marques to financially prop up the series. Something like racing MARC II cars would dramatically drop the costs and still be quick and exciting. Lets not forget, Ford werent in the series in any official capacity at the end of the FG Falcon cycle. Life went on. Sure a TV contract propped it up, but I'm not convinced Fox wont want the Supercars (at a reduced rate) in the future.
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