Looks more like commodore cup than v8supercars

[Gaz170]

Originally Posted by Buckshot

Fords biggest mistake ever was to let 888 switch to Holden, so the only party to blame for their failure is themselves. Again.

And us Ford fans are left thinking, if only........

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by HProject

I noticed you didn't quote my championship-winning count from the last page though... I thought that helped my argument along quite nicely

OK, I'll acknowledge that........now tell me how many times has Ford won both the Championship and Bathurst in the same year, and how many times has holden?

[Downoz]

Could be wrong but, Ford has won Bathurst and the Championship on one occasion since 1993 and Holden has won both in the same year on 7 occasions.

Could be wrong but could be right.

[HProject]

Originally Posted by bluesport

OK, I'll acknowledge that........now tell me how many times has Ford won both the Championship and Bathurst in the same year, and how many times has holden?

Downoz is right - once (2008 with T8 and Whincup).

But, let's go through the Bathursts year by year (time to go even more off-topic).

1995 - Seton is cruising to the win until the car putts to a stop less than ten laps from the end. Although to be fair the race fell into his and Parsons' laps after the four best cars encountered problems (both HRT Commodores, the Castrol car, and the lead Johnson Falcon).

1996 - Alan Jones' 'Pack Leader' Falcon turns into a rolling barbecue while (iirc) leading, with a fair bit of race remaining.

1997 - Pretty much Holden's race to lose. Both HRT cars and the Coke car could've won it. Seton and Parsons looked good until the latter went straight through the sand at Skyline.

1998 - Ford win with Bright and Richards, though Lowndes and Skaife really should've romped home with it. Seton and Crompton also looked unbeatable after they inherited the lead, until the engine blew.

1999 - Radisich and Ellery lead the most laps by far, and are untouchable until they have a puncture something like 30-40 laps from the end. Then the car failed. The only other Ford to really feature was the Johnson/Johnson double-act, which would've been on the podium had Junior not spun the car at the Chase in an attempt to avoid a blocking Morris.

2000 - Seton and Crompton sit in 2nd, behind a soon-to-overheat Murphy/Richards Kmart Commodore with not long to go - but are denied the opportunity to have a go when Matt Neil has a brain explosion and attempts to take out 2nd, 3rd and 4th while 3 laps down (successfully taking out Crompton while he was leading over the eventual-winning GRM car). Longhurst somehow winds up with the lead for no real reason after the last cycle of stops, only to kill his own chances by crunching a lapped car with 7 laps remaining. Radisich closes in on Tander at the front, but can't get him.

2001 - Lowndes crashes at the Elbow while leading, during the infamous 'storm'. Wills and Bowe are the quickest car on the day, but Wills gets them a penalty, and one of them (can't remember whom) stops in the wrong pit-bay in pit-lane costing the team truckloads of time. The strong Radisich/Johnson entry has a failure early whilst going well. Brad Jones and Cleland come home second after giving Skaife a scare.

2002 - Brad Jones opens up a two-second lead on the field on the first lap, but then has his and Bowe's race-winning chances end due to the failure of a two-dollar part. A win possibly going down begging considering the circumstances Skaife was dealing with at the end of the race.

2003 - a dominant Holden win. Ambrose, Ingall, Jones/Bowe, etc don't have the pace to compete with Murphy/Kelly and Skaife/Kelly. Lowndes and Seton may have, but they had the added trouble of having to take on oil in every pit-stop.

2004 - Despite all competitive Holdens bar one encountering issues, and despite all the cars on the lead-lap bar one being Fords, Murphy/Kelly win. T8 was fast, Lowndes/Seton were fast, Jones/Bowe were fast, but none were able to get their act together.

2005 - Lowndes jumps away at the start and absolutely annihilates everyone, until he bops a wall while trying to build a good lead for his slower French co-driver. Ambrose and Luff the car to beat until balaclava-gate.

2006 - Lowndes/Whincup and Kelly/Kelly inherit the 1st and 2nd places after the two fastest cars all weekend fail within the first ten laps. Ford win.

2007 - Ford finish 1-2-3, as Holden's best chance (HSVDT) has brake-line problems with both cars.

2008 - T8 win, although the SBR car of Courtney/Besnard was unlucky not to also be in the mix after tyre failure and a slow stint from Besnard.

2009 - FPR in the lead gaggle until the car turns into yet another barbecue. van Gis/Davison also in with a chance after leading laps, until the Giz accidentally hits the kill-switch in the pit-stop, subsequently causing the car to sit there for an additional minute before they realise what's wrong. T8 completel off the pace in the final stint.

2010 - Winterbottom/Youlden in a good position until they keep Youlden out too long despite a delaminating tyre - subsequently sending him into the wall. No other Fords really get close to T8.

2011 - Winterbottom/Richards in touch with the leaders, until Whincup's alternator failure shakes up the strategies, and his car blocks Winterbottom and host of other drivers. Frosty doesn't have anywhere near the speed needed to recover in the end of the race. Youlden plants Davisons Falcon in the tyre-wall during a caution while leading. van Gisbergen and McIntyre show good pace, but only finish 6th after tangling with Dumbrell, then touring the escape-roads twice in the closing stages.

2012 - Reynolds finishes right under Whincup's rear wing. Both FPR cars look quick early despite Frosty bogging the start, but succumb to a typical set of failures and errors that only FPR can pull-off. van Gisbergen and Youlden fade, then cop a penalty.

So, there we go. In the 18 year space between 1995 and 2012, there were:

- Four Ford wins (1998, 2006, 2007, 2008)
- Three instances where a certain Falcon victory went begging in the closing laps (1995, 1999, 2000)
- Three years where Holden really had the win in the bag from the off (1997, 2003, 2010)

With the remaining eight races being years where Ford cars were in with shots of victory, but were either beaten through raw pace, by lady luck, or (in the case of 1996, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012) beaten by their own ineptitude, their own mistakes, their own car failures, and their own lack of luck when it mattered.

All IMO, of course

[Tourer]

Thanks HProject - goes to show that measuring parity or "opportunity to win" by race results is totally flawed as there are too many variables.

Measuring those things by multi-lap / multi-car / multi-race lap times is much more effective, takes out the bullsh and provides a comparison of real pace - if that's pretty much even then it's down to each team to deliver and to lady luck.

That of course is exactly the system that V8SC has used when looking at parity.

[bluesport]

That's just the point, when one Ford that is in the lead fails, there is a whole gaggle of commodores coming behind, just like it is now (four manufacturers, but over half the field is one manufacturer)........hence the thread title of being like commodore cup.

[Marcos WTF]

Originally Posted by bluesport

That's just the point, when one Ford that is in the lead fails, there is a whole gaggle of commodores coming behind, just like it is now (four manufacturers, but over half the field is one manufacturer)........hence the thread title of being like commodore cup.

But what is the solution- make quotas, that determine that x percent of the field will be frods, x percent will be Holden, etc?

Personally I have no problem with SFA frods. It reflects falcon sales. (not sure if I should have included the 's' on the end of sales. It indicates a plural.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

Or when the one frod in the lead throws it all away in yet another pitstop
fiasco. Yes, fpr, I mean you.

The team let the drivers take over today, A.Davo takes out Ingall, which in turn takes out Frosty. Not much different from a previous Barbagallo where Reynolds spun Tander, and took out W.Davo haha.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Marcos WTF

But what is the solution- make quotas, that determine that x percent of the field will be frods, x percent will be Holden, etc?

Personally I have no problem with SFA frods. It reflects falcon sales. (not sure if I should have included the 's' on the end of sales. It indicates a plural.

All the cars are identicle though.

Maybe DJR should ask T8 to build them some Ford paneled cars

[Casper]

Originally Posted by bluesport

I didn't start the thread topic, but you are always free not to read my posts.

Thanks for the offer but I won't take it up and will continue to read your posts. I wouldn't want to form an unbalanced view that some seem to take.

[FAS33]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

All the cars are identicle though.

Maybe DJR should ask T8 to build them some Ford paneled cars

how bad are DJR, quite possibly the worst team on the grid. ever..

[Chris - Melb]

Originally Posted by FAS33

how bad are DJR, quite possibly the worst team on the grid. ever..

That's possibly the worst post, ever...

How come they finished ahead of big budget teams today? And with rookie drivers...

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by FAS33

how bad are DJR, quite possibly the worst team on the grid. ever..

They've won the drivers championship, they've won bathurst, they dont **** up their pitstops every weekend, and they're not a factory ford team.

I think i know where i'd rather be, ever

[Chris - Melb]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

They've won the drivers championship, they've won bathurst, they dont **** up their pitstops every weekend, and they're not a factory ford team.

I think i know where i'd rather be, ever

I am sure you would rather be with the top official factory team in V8 Supercar, Ford Performance Racing, rather than the Holden Racing Team right at the moment. HRT don't look like finishing a Commodore Cup race any time soon, never mind winning a race.

Perhaps HRT should get Ford Performance Racing or Dick Johnson Racing to run their team?

[formerf1champ]

888 have become the Holden representative anyway. To the point where HRT have become irrelevanta and if they closed their doors or were taken over by a private entry, no one would care.

[Chris - Melb]

Originally Posted by formerf1champ

888 have become the Holden representative anyway. To the point where HRT have become irrelevanta and if they closed their doors or were taken over by a private entry, no one would care.

Rubbish; There are life long Holden Racing Team supporters who would be devastated if the team disappeared. We need them to prosper as much as Dick Johnson Racing.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Chris - Melb

I am sure you would rather be with the top official factory team in V8 Supercar, Ford Performance Racing, rather than the Holden Racing Team right at the moment. HRT don't look like finishing a Commodore Cup race any time soon, never mind winning a race.

Perhaps HRT should get Ford Performance Racing or Dick Johnson Racing to run their team?

I dont think anyone, at all, would want FPR running their team.

year after year, and they still manage to **** up their stops
But thats just my opinion

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by HProject

With the remaining eight races being years where Ford cars were in with shots of victory, but were either beaten through raw pace, by lady luck, or (in the case of 1996, 2001, 2002, 2004, 2005, 2009, 2011, 2012) beaten by their own ineptitude, their own mistakes, their own car failures, and their own lack of luck when it mattered.

What a great summary; really just goes to show Bathurst has far too many variables to count as any measure of parity. If the fastest car every year won it, Seton and Ambrose would both have a win under their belt, and good old LP would have none. Seton's engines let him down and Ambrose could never seem to keep front tyres under the thing. Bathurst is just different and you can lose it far more easily than win it.

I guess the complaint is the number of Commodores, whether they be (A) present or (B) winning.

I believe the number of Commodore's running is a direct or indirect result of Ford policies, allowing teams to move to Holden by apathy alone.

But 888's move was probably the number one catalyst, its quite possible we would be talking about a Ford imbalance now if 888 had not moved to Holden. So Ford fans; have a cup of concrete. If not for Ford letting them go, Ford would have won damn near everything in the last couple of years.

If you were a business in V8Supercars now looking at a customer arrangement with any team, you'd have to be a bit mental not to go 888. Regardless of the make of car they have everybody else covered. Its not discrimination, they are just better. But they won't be forever. At one stage HRT was better than anybody, then SBR was, before that it was DJR or HDT. The sport is cyclic, this one just seems pretty long because we're in the middle of it.

One thing I am loving though is the total lack of certaintly this season, and seeing Lowndes & Whincup driving cars that look a bit evil and are not good on their tyres. Who would have picked BJR to be so strong, or GRM to have a win, with a rookie no less?

Ford fans, can you really have a sook about this season already?

[formerf1champ]

Originally Posted by Chris - Melb

Rubbish; There are life long Holden Racing Team supporters who would be devastated if the team disappeared. We need them to prosper as much as Dick Johnson Racing.

Except for those blokes. Number diminshing as each year passes.

[bluesport]

Originally Posted by HProject

....until Glenn Seton won the 1993 ATCC title that is.

In fact, Ford went on to win 9 championships in the next 18 years

As someone who elects to support the living breathing organism behind the steering wheel, over the plastic badge screwed onto the grill - I'm happy with good racing and deserving winners. T8 - to quote one Mr. Ambrose - are the best team in Australian motorsport history. To see a team of their caliber dominate the series for a while should surprise nobody. It should also surprise nobody that other teams are willing to side with them mechanically, in an attempt to take a slice of their success.

1993

26 commodores
4 Fords

[billy bleach]

Its all very strange from up here. Why have the Mercs and the Nissans basically got the same aero kit as either the 2012 Ford or Holden? I see Nissan got stuck with the old Holden central mounted wing whilst the new 888 kit has the lower drag side mounted wing and the Merc has some rather after thought wing mounts but from the front the cars seem to have inherited the old Holden front end. I reckon somebody pulled a huge stroke with the new Holden kit after years of good equality with the Ford.....

[Bell_End]

They aero test the cars for parity so there is no major difference/benefits to any one of the designs really. I'm sure Nissan could of went with an end mount if they so wished..

[FAS33]

why do they use a runway?

[billy bleach]

Off course they test them - like I say I suspect a huge stroke has been pulled.... Porr bonnet or door fit will generate drag for an areo test, even poor fitting of coolers on the underside can have an effect, Why the new teams were not allowed to make thier own splitter profiles is beyond me, first it makes all the cars look the same and second the GM/Ford shapes were designed for thier cars not a Merc or Nissan. Seems like more ilconcieved short term thinking that seems to be the story with COF

[Bell_End]

Have no idea what you're on about.. The aero of all the cars are fine.