Vettel (DEU) vs Webber (AUS) part 3

[OZ_HCR32]

They said Hungary was when they got the updated diffuser, ECU tweaks and made the whole system more integrated into the performance of the car.

And I think back to Webbers recent comments about favouritism, if you read the actual quote in total...he knew what he was saying could easily be misquoted, so was a bit silly of him. But what he said is I am given equal equipment and support, but some of the Red Bull management like Vettel more then me. Thats ok, he is young and fast and we all haev our favourites or people we like more.

So was an innocent enough comment but he must have known it was going to play well for weeks to come with the press....

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

They said Hungary was when they got the updated diffuser, ECU tweaks and made the whole system more integrated into the performance of the car.

And I think back to Webbers recent comments about favouritism, if you read the actual quote in total...he knew what he was saying could easily be misquoted, so was a bit silly of him. But what he said is I am given equal equipment and support, but some of the Red Bull management like Vettel more then me. Thats ok, he is young and fast and we all haev our favourites or people we like more.

So was an innocent enough comment but he must have known it was going to play well for weeks to come with the press....

All the more reason why Webber should leave RBR. Such comments don't do himself or the team any good.

There's various reasons why one driver is more 'favoured' than the other and it might not have anything to do with one driver having the better equipment. That's always been the case in F1.

The fact is that there is rarely a long standing, bonafide relationship between two strong drivers of the same team...

Senna and Prost: Senna loved to talk to the Honda technicians in the pits when out of the car and gelled better with team members despite Prost being the established driver within the McLaren team. Prost noticed this and soon claimed that Senna was on the receiving end of favouritism, which he suspected explained Senna's superior speed.

Alonso and Hamilton: need I say anything here... Alonso claimed Hamilton was on the receiving end of superior equipment, purely because he happened to be a British driver driving for a British team.

Schumacher and team mates: Schuey's team mates were his sacrificial lambs - they even gifted Schumacher race wins and there were always rumours that Schuey ended up with the best equipment on race day.

Why would anybody in their right mind want to continue to drive for such a team if they feel that the team is behind one driver more than the other? History is against Mark staying.

[stripedcat]

Well it will be difficult for Mark next year that's for sure. We still have to wait and see how all the new technology(KERS, adjustable wings), plus the Pirelli tyres will work out for Red Bull. I suspect that the Red Bull will still be competitive next year.

Realistically I suspect Webber might have some wins next year, a crack at the championship? Unlikely against Vettel now. Vettel just looks to have a more raw speed than him.

[EGG]

You'd want to avoid Rusty like a bad smell after pretty much any race, never mind that one.

[OZ_HCR32]

Well, in an interesting development. It seems Webber is a better F1 driver then he will ever be cyclist. News just out is that he binned his bike between the Singapore and Japanese GPs which meant he fractured his shoulder. Part of the reason why he didnt hang around after the Japanese GP is he had to do a runner to get the shoulder looked at further.

So he is a tough cracker! Not only can he race at the front in the wet with a helmet full of chuck....good part of the 2009 season with pins in his leg. He can do four GPs with a fractured shoulder.

He didnt whisper the fact because he didnt want the other drivers to seize a mental advantage....and didnt want to be seen as making excuses if things did not go to plan.

SO, PLEASE MARK REST UP OVER XMAS AND TRY DOING A FULL SEASON IN PEAK FITNESS

The catch is it seems he is again doing his charity triathlon so lets hope he doesnt injure himserlf again

[ECW Dan Selby]

I think Vettel will slaughter him tbh. I know that seems to be the general consensus, but I really do.

It'll be Mark's last season, and he'll try and go out with a bang... But I think that bang will be one-too many accidents through trying too hard.

Selby

[Bononi]

Well, I think it's too early to make predicitons. Mark had the advantage most of the last season, you just can't discard that because Vettel won the WDC.

[ECW Dan Selby]

Oh i'm not - I'm talking confidence here.

I think Vettel will be well and truly buoyed by this championship win, especially as he was an outsider.

Afterall, this is predictions

Selby

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by Bononi

Mark had the advantage most of the last season, you just can't discard that because Vettel won the WDC.

Mark had the stronger mid season, but Seb did the business from Italy onwards, which was when he needed to be stronger, exactly as it was last season. Mark doesn't seem to be able to keep the momentum going for a whole season, whereas Seb pulls it out when required.

Going into the last race, Seb had outqualified Mark 12-6 and outraced him 10-7 (Korea they both retired) 13-6 and 11-7 after the last race. That tells me all i need to know who have the overall advantage.

Maybe your right, maybe it is too early to make predictions, but i don't think so

[nea]

As nice as it would be to see Webber get a title, he doesn't have a hope in hells chance.

[OZ_HCR32]

Well, I am going to stick with the same thinking I had a few years ago when these two teamed up. Mark may not be as talented or as quick as Seb, but the difference is small. Small enough that if Webber works harder and smart then he can be in with a chance of beating Vettel.

I think Webber likes "trying" to prove others wrong and ultimately he enjoys challenging himself. He doesnt run from challenges, he tries to rise to them....so he will be back and hopefully hungrier then ever.....and i expect next year we will continue to see Webber in the hunt.

[Bononi]

That would be a good season.

[ozrevhead]

Originally Posted by nea

As nice as it would be to see Webber get a title, he doesn't have a hope in hells chance.

well if he didnt before, he sure has hell wont now thanks to FIA lifting ban on team orders.

This is going to be a Red bull manufactured one-sided contest

[ozrevhead]

Originally Posted by Mr V

Mark had the stronger mid season, but Seb did the business from Italy onwards, which was when he needed to be stronger, exactly as it was last season. Mark doesn't seem to be able to keep the momentum going for a whole season, whereas Seb pulls it out when required.

Going into the last race, Seb had outqualified Mark 12-6 and outraced him 10-7 (Korea they both retired) 13-6 and 11-7 after the last race. That tells me all i need to know who have the overall advantage.

Maybe your right, maybe it is too early to make predictions, but i don't think so

His car has been slower since silverstone - if anyone doesnt think that wasnt 'organised' is either stupid or niave.....I will be nice and say the latter.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

His car has been slower since silverstone - if anyone doesnt think that wasnt 'organised' is either stupid or niave.....I will be nice and say the latter.

I guess that if you can't use team orders then you have to do something else.

I also guess that we can never be sure that cars in one team are ever exactly the same specification as each other. Some drivers will choose to go their own way anyway, as Button did at Monza. I'm sure that Webber had options too. I'm also sure that a new part that is said to and does make the car quicker will not necessarily do that for both drivers.

[ozrevhead]

Originally Posted by Marbot

I guess that if you can't use team orders then you have to do something else.

I also guess that we can never be sure that cars in one team are ever exactly the same specification as each other. Some drivers will choose to go their own way anyway, as Button did at Monza. I'm sure that Webber had options too. I'm also sure that a new part that is said to and does make the car quicker will not necessarily do that for both drivers.

I know in my own gut that the cars were not equal since Silverstone....hell they even changed the software when they were winning both championships easy, why on earth would you........problem is if I was born in another country people would either agree with me or not dismiss it so easlly even if they dont. The truth will always come out in the end.

Like I said in another forum - Red Bull dont have to do it behind everyones back whilest trying to tell us that is wasnt happening.

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

I know in my own gut that the cars were not equal since Silverstone....hell they even changed the software when they were winning both championships easy, why on earth would you........problem is if I was born in another country people would either agree with me or not dismiss it so easlly even if they dont. The truth will always come out in the end.

Like I said in another forum - Red Bull dont have to do it behind everyones back whilest trying to tell us that is wasnt happening.

They also organised for Webber to crash out at Korea too and arranged for Mark's friend to crash his bike in front of Webber i suppose.

[Bononi]

Originally Posted by Mr V

They also organised for Webber to crash out at Korea too and arranged for Mark's friend to crash his bike in front of Webber i suppose.

The evil empire of sarcasm...

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

His car has been slower since silverstone - if anyone doesnt think that wasnt 'organised' is either stupid or niave.....I will be nice and say the latter.

The only true measure of intelligence is noticing a conspiracy. If anyone says otherwise then they are on the inside. Don't let them trick you.

[ozrevhead]

Originally Posted by Mr V

They also organised for Webber to crash out at Korea too and arranged for Mark's friend to crash his bike in front of Webber i suppose.

Listen smart alec - IF Red Bull had of given Mark the backing other teams would of he would of had the championship sown up long before Korea and it wouldnt of been an issue

Sacrasm is the lowst form of wit.

[Adam43]

Don't listen to him. He's either too stupid or naive to understand. Or maybe he is on the inside?

*do do do da*

[ASCII Man]

Tinfoil hats everyone!

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by Adam43

The only true measure of intelligence is noticing a conspiracy. If anyone says otherwise then they are on the inside. Don't let them trick you.

Just because you are paranoid doesnt mean they are NOT out to get you ...

Why has'nt anybody checked out who the bike rider was? Red Bull plant? And apparently the accident happened on a grassy knoll ... more to this than meets the eye ... eagerly awaiting WikiLeaks updates.

[deeks6]

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

His car has been slower since silverstone - if anyone doesnt think that wasnt 'organised' is either stupid or niave.....I will be nice and say the latter.

I won't be sarcastic but you are on the wrong tram here!

The solution to this is quite a bit simpler IMO. At this level where 100ths or 1000ths (in the case of these 2 drivers) mean the difference between pole and 2nd, the tiniest differences count. Webber is a bigger guy than Vettel so he has less chance of distributing ballast in the car to make up the minimum weight. These small adjustments can explain those fractions of a second and with all the data available to engineers they can calculate (and test during practice) where the additional ballast can maximise handling. The designs of the car are at fault because I still honestly believe that Webber (at this stage) is a better racer than Vettel who is just not very good when behind. But if Vettel has pole and gets away cleanly, he will win barring mechanical failure. After Silverstone, Vettel raised his game because Webber was actually faster than him at that stage. The little weight distribution advantage is all he needed then. I suspect the same scenario happens at McLaren ... Button is a smarter and better racer but a much bigger guy than Hamilton so he concedes in qualifying and unfortunately in F1 today qualy is where 90% of races are won.

There is no way that a team could or would try to artificially manufacture a "slightly" faster car. It makes no sense and, apart from Turkey (turn Webbers engine down) and Siverstone (wing-gate) where they did try to get the favourite son in front, I think RBR did give every opportunity to both drivers and full marks for doing it right up to the death (even if it was to avoid critisism of hypocrisy). No doubt at all. As Mr V says, Webber would have wrapped it up himself in Korea if he had not binned it ... if that was in any small way due to having a broken shoulder then that is his fault (for the life of me I cannot understand mountain biking at a crucial stage of the season - just dumb risk IMO).

Conspiracy? Nothing to see here!

[Mr V]

Originally Posted by ozrevhead

Listen smart alec - IF Red Bull had of given Mark the backing other teams would of he would of had the championship sown up long before Korea and it wouldnt of been an issue

Sacrasm is the lowst form of wit.

Smart Alec - cool, haven't been called that in ages

I still don't understand why Red Bull should have given either driver their backing over the other that early or would you rather that your driver won the title because his team mate played lap dog to him?

Both drivers were given an equal chance to win the title, Mark lost it with his Korean accident, that said, Seb could easily have lost it with his Korean, Australian, Bahrain and Spanish GP troubles.

Fact was, Seb was the faster driver over the majority of the season and especially when he needed to be.

Webber may have said that the team favour Seb emotionally and he may have been right, i suspect that McLaren favour Hamilton emotionally (Jenson's too much of a team player to say it in public imo) but can you link me to where Mark has said that Red Bull has favoured Seb on the track in those final races?