Chevron B15

[ossyhodge]

Watch this space. PERIOD.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by ossyhodge

RECORDS ARE STRAIGHT FROM "THE HORSES MOUTH"! i.e forget your sightings & journalistic mumbo jumbo.
BUT IT WILL PROBOBLY UPSET ALOT OF PEOPLE.
(saying:- to understand something you have to have shared in the experience.PERIOD)

The problem is that sightings and 'journalistic mumbo jumbo' - reflect the period observations of experienced observers, on the ground, at the time. That is, they too are straight from the horse's mouth.
So, too, are period documents which cite such details.
Indeed, as a trained historian, I would say that period observation and documentation almost invariably trumps the memory of experience recalled thirty years later. To argue that you can only understand what you have yourself experienced is not only to undermine the historical practice of centuries, it is, in fact, to negate the whole of culture, and indeed representational language, since it denies the possibility of communication. It's a great claim, particularism [as it's called] but it is utterly facile.

HOWEVER, at the same time I am quite happy to say that memory must play a part, along with contemporary observation. Contemporary works documents are themselves sometimes wrong or have gaps [intended - [back door cars] - or negligent]. As Helen remarked over on the B19 thread there is a lot to be said for a holistic approach to identity that, necessarily then, varies from car to car in terms of the weighting given to different forms of information.

As a couple of examples what are we to make of these [both Ralts]?

An RT4 in USA with the plate 199. But 199 exists in Australia with complete history and in it the tub, gearbox and fuel cell with which it left the factory [as given in the factory records] Fuel cell in the USA car suggests that it is from chassis 254.

An RT4 in Australia with the plate 576. According to the factory records 576 is an RT31 and 577 an RT4, but the tub and fuel cell in the Australian car accord with those given in the records for 577.

Assuming I could find the guys who built those cars for Ron Tauranac what weight should I give their memory, against the works records, period observations of 199 in the UK, and the cars themselves today?

I don't intend to belittle your book, on the contrary having seen it in draft I believe it is hugely important to our understanding of early Chevron production, and is a significant achievement on your part. However, there remain discrepancies that somehow need to be explained - for example the chassis number printed on Gelb's invoice.

Chris

[ossyhodge]

The "HORSES MOUTH" REFERS TO THE PERSON WHO 1.BUILT THE CAR NEW & STAMPED THE CHASSIS & THE MATCHING PLATE.
2.THE CUSTOMER & OR ENTRANT
3.THE DRIVER OF THE SAID CAR WHEN IT WAS NEW.
WHAT SOME OF YOU GUYS FAIL TO REALISE IS THAT YOU WERE NOT INVOLVED & WERE POSSIBLY STILL AT SCHOOL!.....PERIOD.

[allenbrown]

Originally Posted by ossyhodge

(saying:- to understand something you have to have shared in the experience.PERIOD)

Ossy, with the greatest respect, that is utter rubbish. We're all perfectly capable of developing an understanding of Roman Britain without having actually been there. There's a word for it - it's called being a historian.

I am delighted that you are writing this book and I'm sure I'll buy a copy but please don't think you have a monopoly on the facts.

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by ossyhodge

The "HORSES MOUTH" REFERS TO THE PERSON WHO 1.BUILT THE CAR NEW & STAMPED THE CHASSIS & THE MATCHING PLATE.
2.THE CUSTOMER & OR ENTRANT
3.THE DRIVER OF THE SAID CAR WHEN IT WAS NEW.
WHAT SOME OF YOU GUYS FAIL TO REALISE IS THAT YOU WERE NOT INVOLVED & WERE POSSIBLY STILL AT SCHOOL!.....PERIOD.

Like I said, who do I trust presented with the facts [the guy who built the car and stamped the plate - or in the case of the Ralt examples I gave you, mis-stamped it - and his memories 20-30 years after the fact [like he's going to remember that "it should have been chassis 189, but who cared"] or the guy who saw the car in a paddock and wrote down what he saw at the time.

If you trust a driver of the car when it is new, simply on his memory two decades or more after you are a fool. I've encountered drivers who can barely remember the makes they've driven, let alone the model.

Customer and entrant, fine. What do you do when the customer's period documentation says something different to what the chap in the factory says he built - which is certainly the case with at least two of the examples cited in your book.

Oh, and please don't shout, some of us are trying to have a reasonable discussion here.

Chris

[ossyhodge]

Seperating fact from fiction.You Guys must have a hard job,most of the history i was taught at school has turned out to be fiction.
I was also taught at a young age by my father to keep a log book of any thing technical that i personally did plus accompanying notes.
I did it without question until becoming a professional engineer myself,thus understanding why.
My problem is i have been sitting on this log book & personal notes for 40 yrs & thats only recent history.
One last question...............Historians normally charge a fee don't they?

[Chris Townsend]

The one thing history isn't, which many people get hung up on, is truth.
There is virtually no absolute truth, and even the experience of an event will vary from one person to another. The truth of the Battle of the Somme would be different for a British infantryman, a British general and a German. There's an event, but it's endlessly reinterpretable in the light of evidence. I wouldn't say it's a hard job because I've been fascinated by various forms of history for as long as I could read, so applying professional practice to cars is an extension of something I love. I just don't expect ever to have a completely definitive history of an old car, unless it's been in the shipping case in which it left the factory since the 1970s. I've come across too many cars that looked 'bullet proof' and turned out to have histories full of holes.

Evidence includes notes such as yours, and they are rare and invaluable. The more evidence we get the more the history changes.
Notes made at the time have a different status to recollection; your records from the factory would be as important as a paddock observation of the car in 1970 or 1971, and as the factory paperwork.

Fee!! I get a salary for my day job. I charge a fee if I do a history dossier on an individual car for an owner - those fees don't cover what I've spent over the years on research materials. I have an office full of Italian and French magazines from the 70s and my next move is to add more American ones, this stuff costs.

Like I said, please don't feel that any of us are belittling your contribution, those notes are rare and precious, but they are a contribution to an interpretation of history by defining it at one point, they can't ever be the absolute end of the story.

Cheers
Chris

[ossyhodge]

Thanks for that Chris!

[ossyhodge]

Originally Posted by ossyhodge

Thanks for that Chris!

its just been a labour of love.

[ossyhodge]

Originally Posted by Steve Wilkinson

NB these cars were listed as B15s in the programmes.


Above: Chevron B15 at Prescott 1976 being driven by a T.P. Hart


Above: Chevron B15 at Shelsley Walsh 1981 being driven by Adrian Hopkins

Just a quicky to the top photo Steve.Its actually a B9 with a bolted on superstructure & S.C.A. engine.David Pullen raced it in F4 in the early 70s with its correct M.A.E. under "Low Cost Racing"

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by ossyhodge

Just a quicky to the top photo Steve.Its actually a B9 with a bolted on superstructure & S.C.A. engine.David Pullen raced it in F4 in the early 70s with its correct M.A.E. under "Low Cost Racing"

Thanks OSSY, I was just repeating what the programme from the meeting said it was! Which I would have thought was what the driver put on his entry form!!!

I assume that the "superstructure" is B15?

[ossyhodge]

Steve,
NO THE DRIVERS COCKPIT ROLL BAR IS A "CHROME PLATED" HOMES MADE ON ONE WHICH WAS "BOLTED ON" TO REPLACE THE ORIGINAL B9 ONE IN 1972.

[Douglas Brenner]

I am a little late in the above "discussion" but I would like to say that I owned and raced a B15b chevron in 1970, a BT29 Brabham in 1971-2. I also raced a Lotus 41 in 1969 and a BT40 Brabham a few times in the 80's. I was there and did it and I would like to say that Chris has always known more about it then I had been able to remember. When you are there you don't always think that what you are doing will be of any interest to anyone and you forget many things. Thanks to people like Chris these things have not been lost. If it was up to some of us who were there, it might have all been lost or embellished. I have found that everything he has said to be totally accurate. Chris, thanks for your interest and effort...........Douglas

[ossyhodge]

Just thought i would post a photo of F3.69.03.taken at last years Monaco Historique owned & driven by Rene Ligonnet who last raced there in the final 1 litre race in 1970 in the same car.
Rene brought the car over to the u/k for me to restore,having originally built it in early 1969.
I don,t think there are many chassis out there with this cars history!

Just 2 old guys completing the circle & having the same amount of fun.

[ossyhodge]

Just a couple of quickies on the F.B. Series regarding B14s & 15s

Firstly Dick Smothers did race a B14 in 68 when the car was coloured a creamy type of yellow & once in 69 when the colour was changed to Dark Blue & white.( The car has been in the current U.S. owners hands with its history for many years & is still used in vintage racing )

Secondly Steve Brownsteins B15FB#69.6.was originally delivered new with dark blue bodywork.Unfortunately it was damaged in transit to the U.S. so new bodywork was sent to Fred O. in Light Blue.
As previously stated Steve originally ran his B15 under Fred Opert Racing, until an objection was raised by Fred against Steve after winning.
The Opert decals were torn up & Steve then ran his car out of Jo Grimaldi's workshops.
In fact Steve's B15 was the highest placed Chevron in the 69 Championship(Not a very good ad for the marque by the importer)

Steve also drove Joe's B14 but encountered engine problems.

The B15 was re coloured green & light blue at a later date.

All this can be substanciated by Steve who now resides in Las Vegas & his son.
In addition it was also included in the 2nd run of my book.

All photos remain the property of the above parties.

[ossyhodge]

As previously posted on the B17 thread,here are a couple of photos of the above car in Japan.
Posted is a photo of the supposidly said car with the # no stamped into the top rail behind the drivers roll bar.

Unfortunately whoever did it didn't do their homework!

[ossyhodge]

Rene Ligonnet's original price list plus B15 Brochure (Actually the photo,s in the brochure are not a B15 but are of a B14 F.B.car with G.R.P.drivers seat plus B9 TYPE drivers roll bar )

Also spotted at last years 1 Litre Monaco Historique was one of the 3 "Jolly Club " B15s from 69. (photo courtesy of F3 HISTORIC)

[welco]

Originally Posted by Robert Bruce

I have located the original purchase invoice and it maybe a surprise to you that it was chassis No12 purchased on 12/08/69. My father arranged the purchase through Peter Gethin (as you can see on the invoice). The engine was aparently an ex Ronnie Peterson unit.

I have another invoice from Chevron dated 11/09/69 which is a rebuild after Terry McGrath had shunted during a test at Brands. A further rebuild was necessary after he put it in the lake at Mallory Park on the opening lap of the Lombank Championship round on 12/10/69, unfortunately I don't have a copy of the bill for that one. My elder brother can clearly recall pulling soaking weeds out of the suspension whilst the car was loaded on the trailer after the shunt. There was a few photographs of this at the time but our copies have been long lost.

Does anyone have any idea if this chassis still exists and if so it's whereabouts?

Robert

Do you know what the I.D. (for B15 #12) stamped into the upper right, rear of the chassis would be? I have a chassis that is very similar to my B17b. I've had it for about 30 years. It does not have a Chevron I.D. plate but it does have a couple of dots, the number "12" and a couple more dots stamped into the rear of the chassis. There are letters above the number 12 (either "AN" or "AM"). When I dig the Chevron stuff out, of my storage building, I'll get a better look at the I.D. number / letters.

[allenbrown]

That's probably an Arch Motors number.

[Dan Rear]

Dunno whether this helps or not, but the Mathers are selling the "ex-Maskell B15/B17" in A/S July 1 1971