Sir Lewis Hamilton is the GOAT

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

This, plus I watch sports as a diversion from the politics/news/whatever of "real life". I also don't look toward pampered, spoiled, out of touch with reality athletes for opinions on serious issues. So it is the wrong time and place to insert this stuff into.

I'm sure if LH (or others) made no comment on such matters, he'd be accused of being out of touch with real issues equally as much.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Adam43

What is annoying is that the primary issue here, the injustice, is put to one side because people are talking about a lesser issue...

See!

A man is killed.
Someone points out that this is awful and highlights it is part of a much bigger problem. They ask that people listen.
People talk what T-Shirt people wear.
People talk about the reaction of other people reacting to those talking about the T-Shirt. This becomes the issue!

There has been way more of the last bit out there than talking about the real issue. That’s just wrong.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Adam43

See!

A man is killed.
Someone points out that this is awful and highlights it is part of a much bigger problem. They ask that people listen.
People talk what T-Shirt people wear.
People talk about the reaction of other people to people talking about the T-Shirt and this is now the issue!

There has been way more of the last bit out there than talking about the real issue.

That’s just wrong.

in fairness, slogans on tshirts can be very catchy.

but its probably a lot friendlier/civilized to talk about a tshirt then the bigger, and as you say much harder to have, conversation about race.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Adam43

See!

A man is killed.
Someone points out that this is awful and highlights it is part of a much bigger problem. They ask that people listen.
People talk what T-Shirt people wear.
People talk about the reaction of other people reacting to those talking about the T-Shirt. This becomes the issue!

There has been way more of the last bit out there than talking about the real issue. That’s just wrong.

Before I write this put, I'm guilty of this too, obv.

Political/injustice issue happens.
Someone goes to racing forum and brings it up.
Takes things too far up rear ends discussing something completely disconnected from intent of forum.
Discussion becomes about forum, whether it should be discussed, reactions to posts, not the actual issue.

Sports are the same way. Time and place. Do we really want to watch a sporting event to begin a discussion on heavy real world issues, or are sports meant to be leisure, escapes, etc? There's more than enough places to go and have that discussion without it infiltrating sports. At least instead of shirt hamilton wears beginning a big political discussion on my race broadcast or turning a thread here into political discussion, it instead stays mostly silly and inconsequential by focusing on the shirt.

I get the point above about looking out of touch by not making a statement or commenting about it in regards to hamilton, but I think it alienates fewer people to make those statements on his own, through media, social media, etc, outside of the "workplace".

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Derwent

It may be because the protests are not even handed.
For example Alex Albon has had a lot of stick on here and on social media this year but no one has jumped to his defence with the race card but he is every bit as mixed race at Lewis.
if Lewis were to say something about the nine million slaves in Africa or to refuse to race in Saudi Arabia next year he would have my 100% support.

Albons critics are purely talking about his performance on track....most of Hamilton’s critics have nothing to do with his performances because they are top notch for the majority of the time

His critics mainly talk about his lifestyle, tax, clothing, music, choice in food.

Now if people want ‘politics’ to stay out of sport may I suggest it works both ways....

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Before I write this put, I'm guilty of this too, obv.

Political/injustice issue happens.
Someone goes to racing forum and brings it up.
Takes things too far up rear ends discussing something completely disconnected from intent of forum.
Discussion becomes about forum, whether it should be discussed, reactions to posts, not the actual issue.

Sports are the same way. Time and place. Do we really want to watch a sporting event to begin a discussion on heavy real world issues, or are sports meant to be leisure, escapes, etc? There's more than enough places to go and have that discussion without it infiltrating sports. At least instead of shirt hamilton wears beginning a big political discussion on my race broadcast or turning a thread here into political discussion, it instead stays mostly silly and inconsequential by focusing on the shirt.

I get the point above about looking out of touch by not making a statement or commenting about it in regards to hamilton, but I think it alienates fewer people to make those statements on his own, through media, social media, etc, outside of the "workplace".

Originally Posted by RWill2073

This, plus I watch sports as a diversion from the politics/news/whatever of "real life". I also don't look toward pampered, spoiled, out of touch with reality athletes for opinions on serious issues. So it is the wrong time and place to insert this stuff into.

When is the right time?

For people to say keep politics out of the most politicised sport in the world is laughable....or maybe it’s just the wrong sort of politics for you.

Of course no one said keep politics out of sport when black people or women were banned from competing.....

...no one said keep politics out of sport when F1 decided to go environmentally friendly

...no one said keep politics out of sport when political leaders present trophies for propaganda purposes or state owned sponsors are shown on cars.

Last time I checked asking for equality wasn’t ‘politics’ it’s a basic human right that, if given would be left in the history books and you could all get back to enjoying your Sunday afternoon

The alternative of course is just to switch off for the 5 minutes when drivers take the knee, go make a cuppa or take a dump :-p

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Sports are the same way. Time and place. Do we really want to watch a sporting event to begin a discussion on heavy real world issues, or are sports meant to be leisure, escapes, etc?

sports is so much more then about what happens on the pitch. Its always been this way.

I say as i prepare to watch children from my nation take on the children of other nations for the world junior hockey championship.

Guess who i am cheering for?

The fact that you can identify a flag in my profile on a sporting web site suggests that identity politics is a big part of sport discourse.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

sports is so much more then about what happens on the pitch. Its always been this way.

I say as i prepare to watch children from my nation take on the children of other nations for the world junior hockey championship.

Guess who i am cheering for?

The fact that you can identify a flag in my profile on a sporting web site suggests that identity politics is a big part of sport discourse.

By using a flag in your profile, also lets others know which country you are from.

[S griffin]

Sport should be about what happens on the track, on the field or whatever, but it isn’t always so. Try as we might, there are many other factors that mean what happens on track isn’t the only thing that’s talked about. But there’s still plenty of good things about sport that make people want to do it. People would get bored very quickly without sport and everyone wants to win and no doubt plenty have pride when they win for their country. It wouldn’t be the same if sport didn’t have that tension and will to win. And of course that can sometimes lead to big politics and controversy. Guess it really is too much to ask to keep the talking only on track. People will try and use sport to benefit their cause whether good or bad.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

When is the right time?

For people to say keep politics out of the most politicised sport in the world is laughable....or maybe it’s just the wrong sort of politics for you.

Of course no one said keep politics out of sport when black people or women were banned from competing.....

...no one said keep politics out of sport when F1 decided to go environmentally friendly

...no one said keep politics out of sport when political leaders present trophies for propaganda purposes or state owned sponsors are shown on cars.

Last time I checked asking for equality wasn’t ‘politics’ it’s a basic human right that, if given would be left in the history books and you could all get back to enjoying your Sunday afternoon

The alternative of course is just to switch off for the 5 minutes when drivers take the knee, go make a cuppa or take a dump :-p

I wasn't around when black people or women were banned.

Going environmentally friendly has been a source of contention, has it not? Killing v12 engines, having overweight cars the size of SUVs, that don't sound nearly as good as past cars, etc...

I find it uneasy to see Putin for example handing out trophies on the podiums. I'd be more than happy if that was done away with. How about drivers thanking, bowing, or showing appreciation from those leaders, who in their own countries are fueling racial or social injustices? Why not wear the provocative t shirts then?

I'd be all for doing away with national anthems before sporting events period. Never have understood that.

Unfortunately, basic human rights aren't allowed in all countries. F1 could stop getting in bed with those countries, and I'd be fine with that. F1 could race in those countries and make no mention of issues, and make no comments positive or negative toward that country's political leaders and I'd be fine with that. Just race. (As in, drive cars really fast, kind of race, haha).

Luckily, I don't see the pre race stuff on the telecast I watch, and I'm fine with that. Miss all the stuff without having to turn away, fast forward, etc... Now if only they could keep it out of the post race stuff....

[Peter Mallett]

Taking a step back, racism and discrimination of any kind has no place in sport or life in general (like John R, I have worked and lived all around the world) so the current campaigns in rugby and F1 etc. are to be applauded. However the taking a knee thing can't be separated from what is a political campaign (BLM has registered as a political party) and so I can't support that particular action and personally would not do it.

As John says, life and times change, we wouldn't condone treating women as "crumpet" these days but in the 50s and 60s it was perfectly acceptable.

[john ruston]

Not sure what last post is trying to say but an earlier post points out that eef1 is used by nations with dodgy affairs to promote their position in world .
Sports washing so if people involved can make some sort of stand against racism or any other morally reprehensible position it’s worthwhile.
That’s a moral not a political position.

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

sports is so much more then about what happens on the pitch. Its always been this way.

I say as i prepare to watch children from my nation take on the children of other nations for the world junior hockey championship.

Guess who i am cheering for?

The fact that you can identify a flag in my profile on a sporting web site suggests that identity politics is a big part of sport discourse.

Wouldn't it suck to know that some of the countries competing forced their team to compete? Or threatened them with punishment for a poor performance? Or cheated to win to display some sort of dominance for their country? Or one country travels to another to get taunted with racial epithets?

I'm not a fan of Olympic style competitions either. Always political motivations there.

[Peter Mallett]

Originally Posted by john ruston

Not sure what last post is trying to say but an earlier post points out that eef1 is used by nations with dodgy affairs to promote their position in world .
Sports washing so if people involved can make some sort of stand against racism or any other morally reprehensible position it’s worthwhile.
That’s a moral not a political position.

Yup that's what I said.

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

Wouldn't it suck to know that some of the countries competing forced their team to compete? Or threatened them with punishment for a poor performance? Or cheated to win to display some sort of dominance for their country? Or one country travels to another to get taunted with racial epithets?

I'm not a fan of Olympic style competitions either. Always political motivations there.

We do here as well, we just choose different carrots and sticks.and make no mistake, we also do so from birth.

Fame and glory is what we offer in the free world...but it seems you also object to the platform afforded to those we grant fame and glory to.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

I wasn't around when black people or women were banned.

Going environmentally friendly has been a source of contention, has it not? Killing v12 engines, having overweight cars the size of SUVs, that don't sound nearly as good as past cars, etc...

I find it uneasy to see Putin for example handing out trophies on the podiums. I'd be more than happy if that was done away with. How about drivers thanking, bowing, or showing appreciation from those leaders, who in their own countries are fueling racial or social injustices? Why not wear the provocative t shirts then?

I'd be all for doing away with national anthems before sporting events period. Never have understood that.

Unfortunately, basic human rights aren't allowed in all countries. F1 could stop getting in bed with those countries, and I'd be fine with that. F1 could race in those countries and make no mention of issues, and make no comments positive or negative toward that country's political leaders and I'd be fine with that. Just race. (As in, drive cars really fast, kind of race, haha).

Luckily, I don't see the pre race stuff on the telecast I watch, and I'm fine with that. Miss all the stuff without having to turn away, fast forward, etc... Now if only they could keep it out of the post race stuff....

I’m sure that F1 will be pleased that you think they should pull out of most of their races......don’t be so blind to think that human rights issues are just limited to the Far East for example. Look closer to home.

Human rights issues exist in every country in which F1 races....including the U.K......sometimes people need to have a different perspective or have been on the end of those abuses to realise it.

If F1 took your stance, they wouldn’t be racing at all, but surely it’s a far better attitude to race in those countries and spread positive messages than shy away from the situation by either ignoring the issues or not racing somewhere because of them

It’s strange, of all the politics mentioned above, you’re only now commenting on how you dislike them....I don’t remember you airing your views about them before, but feel strongly enough to comment on Hamilton’s politics....be fair now

[crmalcolm]

If we are saying that 'politics' should be kept out of sport, we would have to override the history of sporting progression for thousands of years.

The Ancient Olympia functioned under a truce between competing nations to allow athletes to travel to/from the games safely. At this time, the athletes were also sent to represent their city/state - so it is also near impossible to have a sport where participants are not there to represent a geographical entity. ergo - all sport is political.

It must be accepted, surely, that if we want a sport, we have to accept that it is a sporting contest? And once we accept that sport is a contest, then we have to accept there will be a victor - and that victor will have an elevated form of power compared to their 'adversaries'.
In any demonstration of supremacy or contest - there will be many other entities who will align or associate with that position and look to have some of that 'power' imparted on them. Whether that is a national pride, a sponsors' elitism, or a philosophical viewpoint.

If we want politics to stay out of sport (and I am referring to activities aimed at improving someone's status or increasing power here), we have to remove the contest element. Remove the contest, and it becomes a participation event only. Is that what we really want to see from drivers? The title of this thread suggests otherwise - the fact that we even have the term GOAT implies that the concept of being greater then others is recognised and valued.

[ascarracinguk]

Agreed. Look no further from the first Grand Prix used by Auto Union and the Nazi party to show their power, to modern day with Trump sponsoring NASCAR, SMP Racing, Russian time etc.....

....keep politics out of sport they say.

Hell even the Olympics are meant to be politics and sponsor free and yet it’s the exact opposite and is just a massive propaganda tool for competing nations...I don’t remember anyone complaining.


As I said above though, maybe it’s not about keeping politics out of sport, maybe people just don’t like a certain type of politics or are just justifying a stance against something by calling it ‘politics’

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by Peter Mallett

Taking a step back, racism and discrimination of any kind has no place in sport or life in general (like John R, I have worked and lived all around the world) so the current campaigns in rugby and F1 etc. are to be applauded. However the taking a knee thing can't be separated from what is a political campaign (BLM has registered as a political party) and so I can't support that particular action and personally would not do it.

As John says, life and times change, we wouldn't condone treating women as "crumpet" these days but in the 50s and 60s it was perfectly acceptable.

This is an important distinction, and where you start to see the stickiness and problem with trying to make social justice/human rights statements without making it political.

The follow on to these statements are things like "silence is violence", to where if you don't show solidarity or go along, you are complicit in racism. But, then you have to make the distinction of the statement and the organization, and now which is hamilton and others supporting? Then it becomes a political thing, not a human rights thing, which is where it crosses the line in sports viewing (for me, at least). In effect, if f1 and other corporations show support for this movement, it sort of shows support for a political movement which can alienate fans who disagree with certain political movements, but not the statement itself.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I’m sure that F1 will be pleased that you think they should pull out of most of their races......don’t be so blind to think that human rights issues are just limited to the Far East for example. Look closer to home.

Human rights issues exist in every country in which F1 races....including the U.K......sometimes people need to have a different perspective or have been on the end of those abuses to realise it.

If F1 took your stance, they wouldn’t be racing at all, but surely it’s a far better attitude to race in those countries and spread positive messages than shy away from the situation by either ignoring the issues or not racing somewhere because of them

It’s strange, of all the politics mentioned above, you’re only now commenting on how you dislike them....I don’t remember you airing your views about them before, but feel strongly enough to comment on Hamilton’s politics....be fair now

I'm not sure you read everything I wrote. I said I'd be fine with them going to all the countries they do, and not saying a thing about anything, whether in support of or against that country and their policies, just as much as I would be them not going to those sketchier countries.

Never said human rights issues are only in far east countries. Point that out where I said that? Maybe I wrote something that gave you that impression mistakenly.

I think the positive message that f1 can give is just to put on an enjoyable show, where the viewers in person and on tv can escape all the nonsense of the outside world and appreciate the competition of athletes from all walks of life. (Ok, all walks of elite rich life ).

When else was I supposed to comment on politics? Actually, I did earlier this year and probably deserved a ban for some of my posts during the height of the lockdown for getting too political. But also, isn't the argument about Hamilton's politics that he doesn't need to make a statement on every issue to make one on this one? Do I have to make a comment on every political issue to make a comment on this one? Also, what other political issues have been discussed here? Is this even the right forum for political discussions?

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by RWill2073

This is an important distinction, and where you start to see the stickiness and problem with trying to make social justice/human rights statements without making it political.

The follow on to these statements are things like "silence is violence", to where if you don't show solidarity or go along, you are complicit in racism. But, then you have to make the distinction of the statement and the organization, and now which is hamilton and others supporting? Then it becomes a political thing, not a human rights thing, which is where it crosses the line in sports viewing (for me, at least). In effect, if f1 and other corporations show support for this movement, it sort of shows support for a political movement which can alienate fans who disagree with certain political movements, but not the statement itself.



I'm not sure you read everything I wrote. I said I'd be fine with them going to all the countries they do, and not saying a thing about anything, whether in support of or against that country and their policies, just as much as I would be them not going to those sketchier countries.

Never said human rights issues are only in far east countries. Point that out where I said that? Maybe I wrote something that gave you that impression mistakenly.

I think the positive message that f1 can give is just to put on an enjoyable show, where the viewers in person and on tv can escape all the nonsense of the outside world and appreciate the competition of athletes from all walks of life. (Ok, all walks of elite rich life ).

When else was I supposed to comment on politics? Actually, I did earlier this year and probably deserved a ban for some of my posts during the height of the lockdown for getting too political. But also, isn't the argument about Hamilton's politics that he doesn't need to make a statement on every issue to make one on this one? Do I have to make a comment on every political issue to make a comment on this one? Also, what other political issues have been discussed here? Is this even the right forum for political discussions?

1) you said F1 should stop getting in bed with countries which have human rights issues.....that will be all of them then

2) I didn’t say that you said the fair east....I said that, I was using it as an example....hense the term ‘for instance’

3) you’ve had PLENTY of time to comment on politics....like at every race when you’ve felt uncomfortable that it’s been a part....I can’t recall you commenting on Putin during the Russian gp thread for instance...and yet you constantly comment on not wanting to see Hamilton’s politics

its interesting though, for some, they don’t want to see Hamilton’s politics, for others his politics aren’t enough and he’s hypocritical for the fact he doesn’t raise other issues (that has been levelled at him in this very thread) and for another group he is hypocritical for only mentioning black lives this year.

It’s probably not the right place for political discussion, nor is it the right place to discuss hip hop, hip clothing or taxes ......and yet somehow when people want to slag off Lewis, it’s all they can bring up.....if only a Motorsport forum could be used to discuss motorsport, unfortunately it doesn’t seem that way.

You can’t have it both ways....if you just want Motorsport then leave out the taxes, clothing music as well as the politics, but if people want to bring up the other stuff to have a pop at Lewis then let’s discuss it warts and all.

Sounds to me like he’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t.

And I’m not having a pop at you here btw.....I just find it fascinating how hypocritical people can be whilst claiming people of hypocrisy....and yeh I’m probably unconsciously guilty of that myself along the line!

[RWill2073]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

1) you said F1 should stop getting in bed with countries which have human rights issues.....that will be all of them then

2) I didn’t say that you said the fair east....I said that, I was using it as an example....hense the term ‘for instance’

3) you’ve had PLENTY of time to comment on politics....like at every race when you’ve felt uncomfortable that it’s been a part....I can’t recall you commenting on Putin during the Russian gp thread for instance...and yet you constantly comment on not wanting to see Hamilton’s politics

its interesting though, for some, they don’t want to see Hamilton’s politics, for others his politics aren’t enough and he’s hypocritical for the fact he doesn’t raise other issues (that has been levelled at him in this very thread) and for another group he is hypocritical for only mentioning black lives this year.

It’s probably not the right place for political discussion, nor is it the right place to discuss hip hop, hip clothing or taxes ......and yet somehow when people want to slag off Lewis, it’s all they can bring up.....if only a Motorsport forum could be used to discuss motorsport, unfortunately it doesn’t seem that way.

You can’t have it both ways....if you just want Motorsport then leave out the taxes, clothing music as well as the politics, but if people want to bring up the other stuff to have a pop at Lewis then let’s discuss it warts and all.

Sounds to me like he’s damned if he does, and damned if he doesn’t.

To the bolded: I'd rather not have politics in sports. So, I don't mention Putin for example. I'd rather not have politics in sports. So, I'd rather hamilton and f1 stop making political statements. Pretty consistent, really.

He is damned if he does, damned if he doesn't. I agree. Goes back to the conversation we were having earlier. He's going to **** off someone regardless. But not commenting on political issues at least avoids controversy.

People hyper analyze the goat of his generation... news at 11? People hyper analyze the most outspoken star of the sport, who makes a point to put his views on all those things you mentioned out in the public.... news at 11? For example, what do we know about Vettel's personality off track? I don't know much. Or about perez, or Ricciardo for that matter. And, they don't get their personal lives and interests discussed or "slagged off" as much. Again though, part of that is he's the goat of his generation, so kind of comes with that a little.

[Akrapovic]

I find "BLM has registered a political party" a very odd statement. BLM is a movement. It isn't an organisation. It's not like it has a CEO. Just because someone who believes in that movement registered a political party, doesn't make the entire thing political. I'm also confused as to why "human rights" should come under a political issue. The idea of not treating people worse due to skin colour doesn't seem like it should be covered under politics tbh.

We say F1 should stay out of politics, whilst governments are involved in the funding of almost every Grand Prix. We're very good at picking and choosing in this sport.

As for taking the knee: Have we discussed all the other drivers doing it yet? Or just Lewis so far? I mean off the top of my head you've got Grosjean Perez, Stroll, Lando, Vettel, George and KMag all doing it? Do they have less interesting legs? Iono.

[bjohnsonsmith]

According to this article from The Guardian, UK Black Lives Matter activists were not behind an attempt to use the name for a political party

https://www.theguardian.com/world/20...olitical-party

[Akrapovic]

There's a disconnect here that is very hard to put into words. BLM is a movement. Just becomes some people register it as a party or organisation, doesn't mean they speak for everyone who believes in that movement. I support BLM. I'd happily wear the shirt and take the knee should I begin the opportunity. But I don't have a membership card for a club.

[midgetman]

Or we could just watch the racing.



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