Diluted F1 driver talent

F1Pete · 16 Mar 2004, 17:26 (Ref:907237)

I really hate it when a guy gets an F1 drive because with him comes sponsorship money. It's too bad the grid ends up with drivers who really don't deserve to be there. This really endangers other drivers and not to mention the poor driver himself. Also, it gives me a sense of F1 displaying at atmosphere of "ungreatness". It is said that F1 is the pinnacle of motorsport. You need to be great just to get a test drive, but that isn't the case.

I remember a long time ago watching the Indy 500. Well, if you had the money, you were allowed to race. Well, this one guy who never raced before at Indy almost killed himself and put other experienced drivers at serious risk. Any of you people who have ever watched a race at the Brickyard knows what danger is all about.

It's too bad there are teams that hard up for money that they bring on someone with the cash. The teams just take the money for development and hope for the best. Is this right???

Ryo28 · 16 Mar 2004, 17:37 (Ref:907254)

Allan McNish expresses similar views...

http://f1.racing-live.com/en/index.html

**Adam43** · 16 Mar 2004, 17:38 (Ref:907255)

I'm not sure the situation is any different to any other era of F1.

Also bringing money does not mean you are rubbish. This current crop is better than most. Even the top drivers bring money in their own way.

Overall the quality of this field is pretty good I feel.

Ryo28 · 16 Mar 2004, 17:47 (Ref:907273)

Yeah, its hardly like the early/mid 90's when it seemed like half the field were pay drivers, and the tail end teams ended up running 6 drivers in a season!

**Bononi** · 16 Mar 2004, 17:53 (Ref:907282)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I'm not sure the situation is any different to any other era of F1.

Also bringing money does not mean you are rubbish. This current crop is better than most. Even the top drivers bring money in their own way.

Overall the quality of this field is pretty good I feel.

Ditto.

Son of Jor-El · 16 Mar 2004, 17:56 (Ref:907287)

Any thoughts on Diniz?
I quite liked him, even though daddy was a billionaire owner of Parmalat or something.

Gt_R · 16 Mar 2004, 17:57 (Ref:907288)

I agree that pay-drivers (usually paying to compensate their lack of ability) devaluate the whole series.

It's obvious when we have the likes of Yoong (a decent driver- but not world-class), and some others, grace F1 simply because they have the cash,while far better drivers are left in the cold.

However, from a practical viewpoint, small teams need drivers that can pay to help their pitiful budget. Furthermore, it's unlikely anybody would risk untested drivers a drive without any financial incentives, and hence a potential young gun needs to pay for his first chance.

However, recent times we've seen quite a few pay drivers who are pretty good to match. Which is a relief. What is important to strike a balance is that teams , in the search for a pay driver, must put "performance" on par with "sponsorship" on the priority list.

EERO · 16 Mar 2004, 18:11 (Ref:907301)

Quote:

Originally posted by Son of Jor-El
Any thoughts on Diniz?
I quite liked him, even though daddy was a billionaire owner of Parmalat or something.

As easy as it was to slag him, he wasn't all that bad. He outqualified Salo and Hill on occaission as their teammate. Was he the best driver available for the seats he filled?

No.

Was he an embarassement?

Ultimately, no.

Super Tourer · 16 Mar 2004, 18:26 (Ref:907311)

Agree with that and his backing kept many a team in the black.

Incidentally the link to his sponsorship is that his father Albino Diniz owns the equivalent of Tesco in Brazil, and was a huge customer of Parmalat, hence the sponsorship from them.

They even allegedly wrote off $30M when they bought into the Prost team, the funds being lost in the process.

Knowlesy · 16 Mar 2004, 18:29 (Ref:907318)

Don't forget, Schuey was a pay driver once you know....

Super Tourer · 16 Mar 2004, 18:35 (Ref:907327)

In terms of the grid this year, I would agree that overall the quality is fairly good. Pantano has been a front runner and past Championship contender in F3000. Bruni has been quick in lower formulae. Baumgartner was in the back of the mid-field in F3000 IIRC.

If you compare the grid to days gone by and the Deletraz of the world, it shapes up pretty well.

In a purist world, F1 would be the 20 'best' drivers in the world, but drivers paying to race in Grand Prix has existed as long as the WDC.

Thinking back, didn't Mika Hakkinen bring his NESTE money with him to Lotus, and surely Mercedes crossed EJ's palm with silver to put MS into the Jordan.

**Bononi** · 16 Mar 2004, 19:32 (Ref:907397)

Quote:

Originally posted by Son of Jor-El
Any thoughts on Diniz?
I quite liked him, even though daddy was a billionaire owner of Parmalat or something.

His father owns a supermarket chain, and Parmalat was one of its major suppliers.

Diniz made his way to F1, despite a good sponsorship, as a talented driver, maybe not a champion but a true sportsman.

He successfully brought Formula Renault to Brazil and many young talents are rising from there.

And much to my admiration, he has a wonderful taste choosing his female partners...

Son of Jor-El · 16 Mar 2004, 20:12 (Ref:907440)

Thanks for clearing that up. Wasn't too sure.
As much as I was a fan of Hill I did enjoy it when Diniz got the better of him in qually, he wasn't a bad little pedaller.
Its early days I know, but out of the current crop of "pay as you go" drivers who stands out?

Knowlesy · 16 Mar 2004, 20:23 (Ref:907456)

Bruni for me. i was impressed by him in Melbourne.

krt917 · 16 Mar 2004, 21:24 (Ref:907532)

Quote:

Originally posted by AdamAshmore
I'm not sure the situation is any different to any other era of F1.

Also bringing money does not mean you are rubbish. This current crop is better than most. Even the top drivers bring money in their own way.

Overall the quality of this field is pretty good I feel.

Agree on all three points Adam!

Weren't Niki Lauda and Rubens pay-drivers at one time? Sometimes it's difficult to know whether a guy is paying for his drive just because he is rich or because he is talented and determined and can't find another way in. In a perfect world, we would get the 20 (well, more like 30 in a prefect world!!) best drivers on the grid, but that would mean taking away the money factor which, though desirable, is not going to happen.

As it goes, I think that the standard on the grid, maybe with one or two exceptions, is very high at the moment. I think that it will be interesting to see who fills Schuey's shoes (!) when he finally retires, but that is another thread.

deeks6 · 16 Mar 2004, 21:45 (Ref:907577)

Adam is correct - there is nothing wrong with the quality of the field at the moment. It's as good as anytime in the last 20 years or so and we have always had pay drivers - many of them later champions. Perhaps Baumgartner is the standout for being undeserving and there are probably better steerers out there than Bruni and Pantano (but they can drive).

As for Diniz, he was a pretty fair driver...definately deserved his spot. de la Rosa was also a pay driver and he's not too bad either. If you are not an absolute standout in a lower category (Prost, Senna spring to mind), then you generally have to bring some $$$ with you to get a start. Then it's up to you ...

bluebeard · 16 Mar 2004, 22:10 (Ref:907609)

I dont think it is right that drivers get into F1 apparently just 'cos they've got a fat bank roll, however if they got the proven ability as well no problem. Lets face it theres 1 driver there who apparently has never won a race in any category in his life! Does he deserve to be there in front of drivers who have 'cleaned up' in F3000 but can't get a seat? The money sure helps but PLEASE lets have it linked to ability as well.

Glen · 17 Mar 2004, 09:26 (Ref:908000)

Usually, not always but usually, the presence of a lot of personal sponsorship money would indicate that a driver has enough skill and potential to extract that sposorship money in the first place. Some drivers have benefitted from extra backing through being the right person at the right time, or having generous faimily, or whatever - but thhe Schumacher example proves beyond most sensible argument that the existence of personal sponsors doesn't mean that the driver lacks ability!

KA · 17 Mar 2004, 09:30 (Ref:908003)

Quote:

Originally posted by krt917

Weren't Niki Lauda and Rubens pay-drivers at one time? Sometimes it's difficult to know whether a guy is paying for his drive just because he is rich or because he is talented and determined and can't find another way in. In a perfect world, we would get the 20 (well, more like 30 in a prefect world!!) best drivers on the grid, but that would mean taking away the money factor which, though desirable, is not going to happen.

Lauda certainly was- believe he financed his early F1 career with bank loans....

BSchneiderFan · 17 Mar 2004, 09:36 (Ref:908008)

Diniz was rumoured to be joining Schumacher at Ferrari back in the middle of '99, if I recall. Seems incredible now, but it was a credible rumour at the time.

steve_r · 17 Mar 2004, 11:14 (Ref:908067)

Quote:

Originally posted by BSchneiderFan
Diniz was rumoured to be joining Schumacher at Ferrari back in the middle of '99, if I recall. Seems incredible now, but it was a credible rumour at the time.

It is a surprising rumor, but he probably would not have been shown up any more than some of TGF's other former team-mates.

BootsOntheSide · 17 Mar 2004, 11:57 (Ref:908092)

Guys who come in with funding but not enough talent rarely last long. The pay-drivers who've established themselves, such as Lauda and Diniz, did prove themselves once they got the chance.

As for this year's guys, Bruni looks quite promising, as does Klien - although I don't believe he's quite ready for F1. Pantano has a good CV but was clearly struggling in Australia - give him time. Baumgartner would struggle to make the top 100 potential F1 drivers in the world, let alone the top 20, but he's keepng Minardi alive and widening F1's appeal, so I can live with it.

**chunterer** · 17 Mar 2004, 12:10 (Ref:908112)

Diniz did alright but he would've been first to admit he wasn't gonna win much. Just happy to prove pace on occasion and compete.

If the budgets were cut back to encourage more teams to enter again (20 cars is patently not enough for a world championship entry) then we'd see more drivers as a result. I would say that the top drivers of today are on a par with any of any other generation in terms of talent. For example with Schuey, Monster, Kimster and Alonso you have 4 genuine superstars,(not seen since mid 80's: Senna, Prost, Mansell, Piquet)with a couple of others nearly there...Webber,Button,Fizzi,Massa. On that basis F1 is getting away with it, as although there's a lowish entry there is quality and not many what i would call 'time wasters' or hangers on in the field, certainly not in the top cars anyway.

However there are a few more talents to come in and add to the 'ace factor', ie, Dixon, Hornish, Castroneves to name just three. Need more teams to make space for them...Audi, secondary Merc or Toyota teams perhaps and Renault always used to supply at least two teams. Cut the budgets and they may well do again!!

There will always be the money bags element and those of you who have already stated that even world class drivers have had to pay their way early in their careers are totally right.

De Cesaris was probably the ultimate pay driver...his father was Italy's red and white ciggie importer i think....this was also partly responsible for funding a lot of other Italian drivers (some very good ones) during 80's and early 90's and may be a reason why there's hardly any now!

climb · 17 Mar 2004, 16:20 (Ref:908289)

From what I know, out of the current F1 drivers, only Trulli and Montoya hadn't a very rich daddy to support their career.

**Peter Mallett** · 17 Mar 2004, 18:45 (Ref:908424)

Both Schumachers come to mind as well climb.

But I believe the problem is not one of quality as of quantity.

When we had 30 cars or more pre qualifying for 26 slots the chaff was sorted out. Ergo the likes of Giacomelli, Lauda, De Crasheris (yes even him

) qualified. Whilst others never got past Friday morning.

So, the current lack of entries has exagerrated the pay driver's profile. It doesn't mean they's bad (exceptions are in eveidence) it just means we've got less opportunities.

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