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Old 8 Apr 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3813969)   #326
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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
You're right in that the biggest problem is the quality of the racing, so I certainly misspoke over what the biggest issue is. However, that doesn't really change anything in regards to the moral decision around grid girls, and certainly doesn't change the fact that you don't work on one problem at a time in a linear fashion. This is just deflection from the actual topic.
Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?

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Originally Posted by Sean Bratches 31 January 2018

“While the practice of employing grid girls has been a staple of Formula 1 Grands Prix for decades, we feel this custom does not resonate with our brand values and clearly is at odds with modern-day societal norms. We don’t believe the practice is appropriate or relevant to Formula 1 and its fans, old and new, across the world.”
[emphasis added]

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
We're still pushing this idea that they shouldn't make morally correct decisions because they haven't sorted the locked in technical regulations that they have very little control over. That way madness lies.
Disagree entriely. Since if you take the moral high ground on something be prepared for the consequences:

The brand values mentioned above appear to be for childish announcements of drivers (see Austin last year); some kind of mascot; an inability to control the manufacturers; and, a pointless change to the timing of the events.

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Originally Posted by Akrapovic View Post
Liberty don't make a change: amateurs
Liberty make a change: doing it for marketing
Liberty don't reinvent the worlds most complicated sporting and technical regulations within a couple of months of taking control: inability to manage

They're being put in a lose-lose situation by people who have already made up their minds on what they expect Liberty to do.
They've put themselves in that position by what I can only assume is a rush of naivity. Agreed they've only been there a year but surely in that year rather than do daft stuff like following the herd, they should just concentrate on the real issue. Nothing wrong in adopting, adapting and improving. But to make it work it has to be in that order. Not what this was, a knee jerk reaction.

And now they have Monaco and Russia refusing to comply. What will they do about that? I'd assume they would have to cancel the meetings because it does not reflect the company's moral ideals.

I do have a view about the #metoo movement which started in October last year, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Nonetheless if it locks away slime-balls like those who are alleged to have carried out these atrocities then more power to the movement.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 12:57 (Ref:3813976)   #327
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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?
Liberty only finalized the takeover of F1 at the end of January 2017. Are we seriously complaining that the new owners didn't make changes to F1 with only 2 months to their first ever race in charge? Again, they made a decision and people will look for any way to discredit a good decision. This feels exactly like those people who criticise those who give to charity. "Just doing it to look good". Using this logic, no good decision can ever be made because it can always be discredited with "marketing", which is poor. If that is the best reasoning anyone can come up with, then I think you'll agree there's not any place we can go with this discussion.


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Originally Posted by Originally Posted by Sean Bratches 31 January 2018

“While the practice of employing grid girls has been a staple of Formula 1 Grands Prix for decades, we feel this custom does not resonate with our brand values and clearly is at odds with modern-day societal norms. We don’t believe the practice is appropriate or relevant to Formula 1 and its fans, old and new, across the world.”
Emphasis also added. Interesting how I can make the exact same quote fit what I've been saying, almost word for word.

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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
Disagree entriely. Since if you take the moral high ground on something be prepared for the consequences:

The brand values mentioned above appear to be for childish announcements of drivers (see Austin last year); some kind of mascot; an inability to control the manufacturers; and, a pointless change to the timing of the events.
Again, this is completely unfair. Childish driver announcements and mascots? How dare people have fun. We should be super duper ultra serious. A sport is no place for a mascot. It was more serious in the old days - except Gerhard Berger. We love Gerhard!

Controlling the manufacturers - you must be saying this in jest, right? Nobody, ever, has managed to control the manufacturers. If the wind so much as changes direction, Ferrari threaten to build IndyCars. We're being critical of Liberty for not immediately solving a problem that nobody else has ever solved?

Timing of the events - far from a pointless change. TV stations work in half hour blocks. If you start a race at 1300, the TV program has to start before that to allow for the pre-race. Sometimes that's fine as some TV stations do a 30 minute or 60-minute build up. But for some, they have a short build up and go straight in. Starting a race at a few minutes past the hour allows for the race to be scheduled easier. It works for IndyCar and NASCAR, it's also why endurance races are now time rather than distance (WEC is 6 hours, not 1000 km), and it's why events like Blancpain start off the hour too. It's far from pointless - just F1 is late to the party.

Many said "this wasn't a problem in the old days", forgetting how F1 got bumped for Coronation Street, and Formula E got bumped for Peppa Pig. TV time is valuable and times have changed a lot. This fits with getting F1 on TV easier. It might be pointless to pay per view expensive viewing, but not for free to air. Again, this is an easy quick fix that takes very little effort to put in place.

If this is the list of everything Liberty has done wrong, then some straws are being firmly clutched right now.

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Originally Posted by Peter Mallett View Post
They've put themselves in that position by what I can only assume is a rush of naivity. Agreed they've only been there a year but surely in that year rather than do daft stuff like following the herd, they should just concentrate on the real issue. Nothing wrong in adopting, adapting and improving. But to make it work it has to be in that order. Not what this was, a knee jerk reaction.
We all agree that the real issue is the show, yet everyone seems to be skirting around the logistical facts regarding the technical regulations. Liberty took control of F1 at a point where new regulations had just come in. They tend to be in play for 3-4 years to stop teams having to redesign absolutely everything at a massive cost. The technical regulations are written by the FIA, who Liberty are not in charge of. So I'd love to hear how Liberty could've "concentrate on the real issue" under these circumstances.

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And now they have Monaco and Russia refusing to comply. What will they do about that? I'd assume they would have to cancel the meetings because it does not reflect the company's moral ideals.
Why would they have to cancel the races? Liberty chose not to hire contractors because it doesn't fit with their values. That doesn't mean everybody else has to play to Liberty values. They can either allow them to do it because they aren't the ones hiring them, or they can tell them not to because it doesn't fit with the brand. Whatever happens will probably be down to the fine print in contracts.

Once again: If the new owners do something, they're just marketing. If they don't do something, they're amateurs. If they don't reinvent the sport within a month of ownership, they're not concentrating. They have not rehired contractors for a now redundant position and people find it unacceptable.

The overwhelming irony of the last few posts is we're sitting being told that Liberty are not concentrating on the real problems, whilst complaining there won't be a woman in a dress holding a sign now. Who exactly is not concentrating on the real problems?

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Old 8 Apr 2018, 13:10 (Ref:3813978)   #328
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Ok.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 13:37 (Ref:3813984)   #329
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Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?

[emphasis added]



Disagree entriely. Since if you take the moral high ground on something be prepared for the consequences:

The brand values mentioned above appear to be for childish announcements of drivers (see Austin last year); some kind of mascot; an inability to control the manufacturers; and, a pointless change to the timing of the events.



They've put themselves in that position by what I can only assume is a rush of naivity. Agreed they've only been there a year but surely in that year rather than do daft stuff like following the herd, they should just concentrate on the real issue. Nothing wrong in adopting, adapting and improving. But to make it work it has to be in that order. Not what this was, a knee jerk reaction.
Hmm... Let's see... Mascots, childish driver announcements... Things that might interest... Kids? A target demographic to keep the sport going long term? Having scantily clad women being objectified while attracting kids as an audience? Oh, scrap that to better align with their values and be appropriate for the kids you're trying to draw in.. Sort of all fits doesn't it? And a smart idea to keep the sport relevant in the future, no?

As for your last paragraph, I tried explaining that earlier, guess it wasnt read. So how about this: McLaren have all their engineers working to improve the performance of their car. Analyzing aero, making the engine swap and fitting it to the chassis, etc... But they still found time change the livery fir this year. I guess it was mismanagement on their part to do so, sknce the livery has no effect on the number one problem: on track performance. Guess that goes for every team on the grid too. Heaven forbid they do more than one thing at time!

Except for a very few posters, every thread on here is usually made up of sensible, reasonable posts. Except this one.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 13:40 (Ref:3813985)   #330
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Except for a very few posts, every thread on here is usually made up of sensible, reasonable posts. Except this one.
Fixed that for you.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 13:56 (Ref:3813996)   #331
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I generally have quit posting in this thread as I didn’t think I had anything new to contribute. We are many pages in and it is the same arguments going around in circles. I also firmly believe that people like Peter are unlikely to change their position given additional discussion. I just don’t see the point in further engagement. But I think Peter question below is interesting...

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Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?
I read this as to why F1 didn’t make this change earlier. That the timing is more in sync with something like the #MeToo movement? Further, I think Peter is saying this is part of the “jumping on a bandwagon” argument. With the implication that it was not done for moral reasons. And if it wasn’t done for moral reasons then it is wrong?

Sorry if I am interpreting that wrong.

Let’s say for arguments sake that there was a bandwagon passing by and F1 jumped on it. Who can say what was in the hearts of those making the decision. Did they have a sudden epiphany and decide they should adopt a new moral stance, or maybe it was purely a commercial decision and morals played no part? Or maybe it wasn’t such a black and white decision (everyone loves to think the world is black and white) and maybe it was some balance of both (of which we will never know the ratios). Does it even matter?

I think back to stories of the segregation era here in the US. Across the entire country you would have had the entire spectrum of scenarios. Businesses who where fully segregated by choice due to their version of morals, others who were fully integrated due to a moral position and maybe others that were either segregated or integrated that might actually be operating against their moral principles. Maybe they had to make a business decision that may have been contrary to their moral position. Clearly when laws were changed, some were forced to operate in a way that was contrary to their moral positions. Does anyone argue it was not for the overall good? The country (and world) still has a long way to go yet, but progress has been made.

My point here is not that I am equating racial segregation to the issues of gender (some may and I am also ok with that), but I am saying... who cares why or when F1 made this decision. Their timing or reasoning can’t be a valid reason to attack the basic concept. Recent attacks on this paint it in a purely cynical way and also label it as a “fad” (time will tell!)

I would argue that race and gender issues are not a fad. Change has been a slow progression over centuries. And progress is never a smooth linear line graphed over time. Change comes in lurching jumps. They can and will be disruptive. Just as what we are seeing now.

But, the change does appear on a timeline and sometime it is significant enough that there is a clear before and an after. So trying to find meaning to why it happened at particular moment is best understood with hindsight. We can discuss it today, but don’t expect grand insight until we can look back.

With that being said... My opinion is that clearly the decision was not made in a vacuum. That what else that was going on in the world at that time was a factor. We can’t ignore the timing in relation to the #MeToo movement. That movement and the associated discussion allowed other long simmering gender related issues to bubble up from below. Some, such as grid girls, may not have been on many people’s radar, so this seems like it came out of nowhere. For others (I put myself in that camp), knew that it was a topic that lived just below the surface of the general collective consciousness.

And, regardless of what you think of that movement, it has a limited impact on how people should view the new stance by F1 on grid girls. That decision should be able to stand on it own merits.

Richard

Last edited by Richard C; 8 Apr 2018 at 14:04.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 14:26 (Ref:3814028)   #332
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I don't think the emergence of the #MeToo campaign/movement and the subsequent announcement to ban Grid Girls, is a coincidence.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 14:58 (Ref:3814038)   #333
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Well, if we've learned one thing from history, it's that the majority is always right and the minority should just shut up and take it!

Err.... Seems like just a couple days ago was the 50th anniversary of the assassination of someone who may have disagreed with that though....
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Hmm. But surely that's a good example? The injustice was finally voted out by a majority.
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Ok but why wasn't the moral decision made before October 2017?

[emphasis added]



Disagree entriely. Since if you take the moral high ground on something be prepared for the consequences:

The brand values mentioned above appear to be for childish announcements of drivers (see Austin last year); some kind of mascot; an inability to control the manufacturers; and, a pointless change to the timing of the events.



They've put themselves in that position by what I can only assume is a rush of naivity. Agreed they've only been there a year but surely in that year rather than do daft stuff like following the herd, they should just concentrate on the real issue. Nothing wrong in adopting, adapting and improving. But to make it work it has to be in that order. Not what this was, a knee jerk reaction.

And now they have Monaco and Russia refusing to comply. What will they do about that? I'd assume they would have to cancel the meetings because it does not reflect the company's moral ideals.

I do have a view about the #metoo movement which started in October last year, but it is not relevant to this discussion. Nonetheless if it locks away slime-balls like those who are alleged to have carried out these atrocities then more power to the movement.
Hmm.... Let's revisit your question to me a few pages back. Did the majority just jump on a bandwagon or follow the herd? Or did something and/or someone come up that made them notice something wrong with the current situation? Was it wrong that the majority shifted from being for segregation to against? Should we question their motives?

Edit: hey Richard, in another thread I said don't change. I meant that as a compliment, in case it came off as anything other than one. I enjoy your posts!
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 17:07 (Ref:3814070)   #334
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...... Further, I think Peter is saying this is part of the “jumping on a bandwagon” argument. With the implication that it was not done for moral reasons. ........
No, not at all. It was not done because they hadn't thought about it.
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Old 8 Apr 2018, 18:57 (Ref:3814140)   #335
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Edit: hey Richard, in another thread I said don't change. I meant that as a compliment, in case it came off as anything other than one. I enjoy your posts!
Thanks! I took it as you intended.

Richard
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 15:59 (Ref:3814441)   #336
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is this really a change in Liberty policy though?

still no change in their policy of no grid girls (the placard/sign holder variety) and local promoters can still do their thing in terms of their own needs...im not sure i see much change in what Monaco and Russia are suggesting they want to do or a backtracking by Liberty.

imo, sensible heads have prevailed as everyone is figuring out the new paradigm.

i also think a good balance was struck in Bahrain.

kids on the grid, a nice horn and string section playing the anthem instead of canned music and a line of ladies...although they were still there in fewer numbers including a couple of Gulf Air flight attendants on the podium even.

those of us who think the practice was superfluous/over the top have seen a big reduction of that, the local promoter can still appease their corporate sponsors (in this case Gulf Air), still pretty girls around for those that are there but now done in more subtle (and frankly classier) way.

the glamour and glitz of F1 has remained intact at an opulent race course with celebs on the grid and elaborate fireworks show at the end.

a good example of compromise and civility!
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:16 (Ref:3814449)   #337
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:16 (Ref:3814448)   #338
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Seeing as they are no longer at Monaco going to be performing a grid girl function, but be merely their for prettying the grid up, do we now need to call them grid embellishments? That sounds worse than grid girls.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 16:25 (Ref:3814451)   #339
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
They had Karting Kids at Bahrain, like Melbourne.
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Old 9 Apr 2018, 17:00 (Ref:3814463)   #340
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I watched (just) the race on TV on Sunday so didn't see any of the before & after events so can't comment on what was used with/instead of girls.
My main reason for this was that I decided to watch all three BTCC races 'live' on TV and although I wasn't specifically looking for them did notice that there were no shots of the Grid Girls from Brands Hatch. Maybe, because of the weather there weren't any (although I'm sure I briefly glimpsed a girl holding a grid position board once). Usually it was an ITV 4 standard to show the cars arriving at their grid position shot to include the Grid Girl...
Similar to the BTCC media day at Donington, most teams didn't make use of their media girls. From the broadcast on Sunday, it appeared that one or two teams did have their girls on the grid, but the noticeable difference was that the cameraman didn't, as previously, pan up and down the young ladies.

And, Turkington stated to Louise on the grid that a piece of sticky tape on the windscreen that he was adjusting was so that he could line up in the right place on the grid without someone to hold up a board.
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Old 25 May 2018, 09:44 (Ref:3824520)   #341
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Grid girls are back!

Well done to the Monaco GP organisers for not jumping on the bandwagon.

https://www.motorsportweek.com/news/id/18348





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Old 25 May 2018, 10:06 (Ref:3824525)   #342
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I'm not sure how motorsportweek can call this news - as it is hardly newly received or noteworthy information?
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Old 25 May 2018, 16:53 (Ref:3824582)   #343
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Well it is a pretty lean time as far as real news is concerned

After all this race is more about celeb's and fashion than actual racing
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Old 25 May 2018, 17:33 (Ref:3824588)   #344
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Just to add, the young ladies will not be grid girls, per se, but will be promoting their temporary employer, Tag Heuer. I do not believe that they will be on the grid to hold the drivers' placards as in the past, and possibly not even on the grid at all.
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Old 25 May 2018, 18:25 (Ref:3824609)   #345
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Just to add, the young ladies will not be grid girls, per se, but will be promoting their temporary employer, Tag Heuer. I do not believe that they will be on the grid to hold the drivers' placards as in the past, and possibly not even on the grid at all.
So they aren't really grid girls.
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Old 25 May 2018, 18:41 (Ref:3824613)   #346
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So they aren't really grid girls.
Pit girls?
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Old 25 May 2018, 23:41 (Ref:3824665)   #347
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They are there as the Monaco organisers stated, to add glamour to the grid area, so I guess they are Glamour Girls, all provided by TAG Heuer and dressed accordingly. They will not be holding grid boards and are there just to look pretty.
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The glitzy and glamorous Monaco Grand Prix will be the exception to the rule however, although the local ACM has accepted that the grid girls will not hold any driver name-boards.

"The relationship is good with Liberty Media, because they understand that Monaco is not Spa or Monza," ACM president Michel Boeri told Monaco-Matin.

"We've had no problems with Liberty Media, except for the grid girl issue. They'll be there, on the gird, but won't be holding any name-boards.

"They're pretty and the cameras will be on them once again."
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Old 26 May 2018, 00:48 (Ref:3824673)   #348
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They are there as the Monaco organisers stated, to add glamour to the grid area, so I guess they are Glamour Girls, all provided by TAG Heuer and dressed accordingly. They will not be holding grid boards and are there just to look pretty.
If they are not going to hold grid boards, won't they got lost amongst the pre race mob that descends on the grid, what with all those TV crews getting in each other's way trying to get that interview before the race starts?
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Old 26 May 2018, 04:44 (Ref:3824683)   #349
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There is it would seem some commercial consideration of the 'Glamour Girls' at Monaco, as they will all be dressed in TAG Heuer outfits.... I guess we will just have to bide our time as the clock ticks down to the grid when all will be (hopefully tastefully?) revealed.
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Old 26 May 2018, 07:53 (Ref:3824710)   #350
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Sebastian Vettel's comments from Wednesday's drivers press conference.

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Vettel: "Well, I think the whole thing has been blown up, probably unnecessary because I don’t think any of the grid girls in the past were forced to do it. So, I think they enjoyed what they were doing.

I agree with Lewis, I like women, I think they look beautiful, so if there was guys, I was just not interested, nothing against those guys but I just didn’t care as much but, bottom line, I think it’s too much of a fuss nowadays. I think all the women that took part as a grid girl in the past did it because they want to. I’m sure if you ask any grid girl on Sunday if they’re happy to stand there, their answer will be yes. I don’t think there’s anybody that forces them to do it. So, it speaks a little bit for our times that sometimes there’s a lot of noise for nothing."

Well said Seb. What a champion this guy is!


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