50' Saloon racing

[SNH]

I believe that saloon racing in the UK started in the 50s. Two questions:
1. is this true?
2. what were the cars & were they modified?

[Darren Galpin]

The first year of the British Touring Car Championship was in 1958, won by Jack Sears in an Austin A105 Westminster.

[SNH]

& was it a road going car?

[Marshal]

There were saloon races before then, I do remember pictures of a very young Stirling Moss getting Mk 7 Jaguars to lean over a very long way at International Trophy Meting in the early 50's. As I recall the cars were roadgoing ish...

[Vitesse]

Originally posted by SNH
& was it a road going car?

Yep, and a big bugger too. It was the big brother of the "Pininfarina" Austin Cambridge/Morris Oxford models, first introduced in IIRC 1955.
I learned to drive in an Oxford and it was like trying to turn a bus ... God knows what one would have been like to race!!!

[SNH]

first time I drove a car on the road was a Cambridge A55 Mk1, then a Mk2, then an Oxford Mk2, (mother's NCB company car). Know what you mean.

[yelwoci]

I 'learnt' on a '55 Landrover SWB with bent steering arms and a slack steering box...prepared me for the RX7!

IanC

[Rob29]

What is a saloon car? If we mean anything with a roof,then we need to look much further back.Must look in my History of Brooklands..

[Vitesse]

From Georgano's Encyclopaedia of Motor Sport (1971):

"Present-day saloon car racing in Great Britain can be traced back to the BRDC's production car races, run at Silverstone during the club's International Trophy meetings. The first International Trophy meeting was in August 1949, and the 1-hour production race held then was dominated by open sports cars, being won by Leslie Johnson's Jaguar XK from the similar car of Peter Walker and Culpan's Frazer Nash. But in among the open cars were three 2.5 litre Riley saloons and two Jowett Javelins which delighted the crowd and showed up surprisingly well amid their more exotic rivals. They were handicapped by unrealistic international regulations which demanded that they run with the driver's window open and the rear window removed - presumably to aid ventilation - but the seeds were sown.

In May 1950 the Silverstone meeting saw closed cars from Jowett, Healey, Aston Martin, Riley and Lea-Francis running in the production car race, and by 1952 a separate 50-mile production touring car race was run ... Stirling Moss won in a Jaguar MkVII ... from Wharton's Healey and Allard's Allard."

[DAVID PATERSON]

I believe that the crux of a touring/saloon/sedan type car is 2 or 4 doors, 4 seats and a fixed hard roof. In Australia, before WWII a few touring cars were often relied upon to fill holes in the program, but noone was interested, they paid to see sports and racing cars.

After the war, sports and racing cars were in short supply and those not resourceful enough to build their own racing special were forced to run touring cars. In the late '50s, their popularity was growing and a few people were serious enough about winning to start really developing these cars. Of course, such endeavour was not smiled upon by the authorities and for 1960 Australian Touring Cars were required to conform to the Appendix J rules.

Then in 1995 the Historic Commision decided to create a new class, known as Group Na Production Touring cars. The class is restricted to 4 seater production Touring Cars sold in Australia prior to 1958, running near standrad trim. The class is designed to be fun for competitor and spectator alike and very cheap. The class has proven quite popular in New South Wales, with a dozen or so cars regularly competing, but the rest of Australia has shown little or no interest. In fact the only other cars are in Queensland, an Austin Lancer which only races once or twice a year and an FJ Holden which nearly made its debut last weekend.

The field in New South Wales is dominated by the Austin Lancer/Morris Major twins, but there's also a Morris Oxford, a Morris Minor, a Volkswagen 1200, a Mk VII Jaguar, several Mk II Zephyrs and several humpy holdens.

BTW Mallet man, how do you like my effort at hijacking a thread on racing history and turning it towards Historic Racing?

[Ray Bell]

As for the two and four doors bit... the rules in App J used to be that two door cars only qualified as touring cars if they were under 750cc!

If that rule had remained there would never have been any Mustang mania in the later sixties...

At Applecross in 1941 there was a support race for the Patriotic Grand Prix which was supposed to encourage the use of alternative fuels to help the war effort... big touring cars with gas producers strapped onto the back of them... That may well have been the first race in Australia restricted to touring cars, before that I fell sure that the "production cars" or "stock cars" label fitted anything that came out of a factory in fairly large numbers...

A Singer Bantam won a race at Lobethal in 1939... but there was no supporting event at Bathurst in 1938 at all, and it wasn't till 1946 that there were handicap events alongside the main event to give such supporting events... and then they were cars that ran in the main race anyway.

The first touring car race at Bathurst was at Easter in 1951, when there were the first production Sports Car races as well, and a Closed Car handicap.

[Roger Clark]

Originally posted by Ray Bell
As for the two and four doors bit... the rules in App J used to be that two door cars only qualified as touring cars if they were under 750cc!

If that rule had remained there would never have been any Mustang mania in the later sixties...

When was this? Minis wold have had problems too!

[Ray Bell]

Don't tell me my memory has failed me again, Roger!

There was a rule about 2-door cars, and it was dependent on the engine capacity, but maybe 750cc was not the right figure.

I'll bow to anyone with superior knowledge, or something in writing if anyone has a CAMS Manual from that era... I know it was quite low, but maybe it was 1000cc?

[sat]

Alfa Romeo GTA was also two door, as Chevrolet Camaro. I can also remember very noisy, but fast Mazda Rx-7 as touring car in european championship in late seventies. Also Skoda 130RS was truly coupe. So i mean was no capacity limits, only productions numbers.

[Ray Bell]

The limitation of which I speak was purely on Australian Appendix J cars. There was definitely a capacity limit on two-door cars... We certainly had GTA - yes, very noisy... and I stood alongside the circuit at Warwick Farm waving the flag... actually hurt the ears! - and GTV models racing, but not until after the change in the rules to Improved Production in 1965.

I repeat, there was a rule that precluded two-door cars in Australian Touring Car racing... no question of it, and nothing to do with production numbers.

Let's not discuss the farce of the Mazda RX7 being allowed in... nor the Porsche 911!

[Frank de Jong]

Sorry to stumble in on a remark from 2001, but can't resist.
Ray, in Group 2 only cars with 4 SEATS were allowed - unless they had a capacity of under 700 cc, then a two-seater was allowed. Perhaps you were mixing it up with that particular rule?

[Anuauto]

Another late comment: the Austin A105 was not the "Farina" barge but its predecessor, a slightly extended version of the original compact A90 shape. Never understood how they were so quick in their class. At Sept 57 (delayed from May) Silverstone meeting, Sears and Adler A90s were initially in the lead of their class ahead of the Flockart 2.4 Jaguar, the Grace Riley Pathfinder and the Zephyrs (behind 4 of the new 3.4 Jaguars overall, Mike Hawthorn leading in the car he would be killed in in 59). All true road cars of limited modification by any later standards - but results were probably down very much to exactly how modified (Hawthorn's car was slightly more modified than the other 3.4s, even if he would have still won in equal machinery).

[Andrew Kitson]

Could that be some kind of record Frank? Bringing back a thread over 4 years old?
Jack told me that back in '58 when he won the BTCC, he and his wife would go off shopping on a Saturday morning in the car, a quick service in the afternoon then off to Brands, Silverstone or wherever and win his class in it next day! Wonder if Matt Neal did the same...

[zefarelly]

50's saloons where usually fairly standard, and road going, you only have to look at the fact the cars wore the chro e off their door handles because they leaned so much for proof !

what we see now in 50's saloons are essentially hot rods based on which ever marque is on show, 1400 A35's, Healey powered Westminsters, a grey lady with a greyer spec, the list goes on. It does look impressive, but the lack of period regs make it difficult to set any now and keep it interesting enough to be viable IMO

[COLIN STUBBS]

a good set of regs are all you need. when the cscc[ctcrc] invented pre 57 and later 65 they had it spot on. then the comittee at the time relented to the cliqey minority group who wanted alloy wheels/more mods/etc.then we had an appendix k class which was supposed to be all original stuff[unless you was a cleeky club member]the championship died a slow painfull death,became a series of races but IMO its finished.plenty of other places to race em though if you can afford it!!!!!!

[zefarelly]

I think the CSCC/CTCRC regs are good, and as near as App K but allowing some sensible leeway for all budgets and practicality given parts availability

some 'others' are far too lax with their interpretation and leniancy

[zefarelly]

I think the CSCC/CTCRC regs are good, and as near as App K but allowing some sensible leeway for all budgets and practicality given parts availability

some 'others' are far too lax with their interpretation and leniancy

[johnh875]

Originally Posted by Frank de Jong

Sorry to stumble in on a remark from 2001, but can't resist.
Ray, in Group 2 only cars with 4 SEATS were allowed - unless they had a capacity of under 700 cc, then a two-seater was allowed. Perhaps you were mixing it up with that particular rule?

It would be a similar concept Frank, but I’m sure Ray has a pretty fair handle on things. For instance one of the prominent racers Norm Beechey had a Chev Impala specially built with the highest spec 409ci engine and 4 speed in a 4 door (pillarless!) body because the normal 2 door body that would typically have that driveline was ineligible. In later years the restriction was eased if not completely removed, but the period Ray mentions pre-dates Minis and there would have been few cars of that size sold in Australia, and numbers of 2 door cars fell through the floor as well. Through the mid 50’s the Holden made up over 50% of cars sold in Australia.