Brabham BT15

[Denis Lupton]

Ed
The letters are EMC, I think, Ehrlich Motor Co. A Dr Ehrlich made cars, and modified engines in this period.
Tried to ring you, but no answer, I'm afraid
Cheers
Denis

[edholly]

Denis,

Thanks, when I now look at the semi-circle it has a little pip in the middle of it and could easily be a stylized E. It is a beautiful casting especially the manifold, with very deep ribs. These get ice on them in cold damp conditions, so maybe they are more heating fins than cooling fins. Anyway you have solved the mystery for me.

When will 25 and 19 get to run together? I should have 25 at Winton.

Ed

[phdm]

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

Andrea Nianini probably Andrea Vianini who uses BT15 in the Temporada of Jan-Feb 66. MN 19.1.67 p.2 has piece on Mohr in which he says he bought the ex Dubler BT15 for 1966 when it became clear his promised works de Sanctis wasn't going to materialise. Could well be that the car came back from Argentina, possibly with the two Argentines of Escuderio Automundo [Piaretti and Cupeiro] who drove 1966 model BT15s in Italy most of the season.

I have another note to MN 23.1.69 alongside F3.13.65 which was basis of my 1965 ascription of the car to Mohr. I'll double check this soon as I can.

What are the dates of races indicated before the 29 November 1965? We can work out the driver by process of elimination.

Chris

Chris,

Yes Vianini. Sorry about the typos ! The French text was right.

Dubler says that:
- He bought a new Brabham for the 65 season. He sold the car at the end of the season to Vianini via Jo Siffert.
- Vianini drives the BT15 at the 66 Temporada.
- He bought a new Brabham for the 66 season. Is it a BT15 or BT18 ? Race results on formula2.net (coming from F1R ?) mention BT18 expect for Keimola Ring, Finland and Karlskoga, Sweden races in August.
- Beat Fehr drives Dubler's BT15 (or is it a BT8 as indicated in Formula2.net ?) from the previous season at Caserta in June 1967. Beat Fehr is killed at that race.
- Manfred Mohr is driving an old BT15 (in 1967) when he got a drive with De Sanctis. He does not say whose car the BT15 was before.

I am confused when you write:

Originally Posted by Chris Townsend

I have another note to MN 23.1.69 alongside F3.13.65 which was basis of my 1965 ascription of the car to Mohr. I'll double check this soon as I can.

I thought you had written that this chassis number was totally unknown.

Unfortunately, the first recorded race on the ONS Wagenpass is on 17 April 1966.

[Hagis]

Hi,

I am new at this forum, but might add something to fill some of the "holes" regarding Brabhams.

F-3-7-65 I see that David Rees od Goodwin Racing is noted, but that might be 1966 or later?? According to my notes Picko Troberg, Sweden raced it in 1965, and he had it damaged early in -66 in the Argentinian "Temporada" at Mendoza. It was then returned to England, and then it "disappeared".

F3-10-65 (David Cole). I have a note that it was raced by Kai Godenhjelm of Finland in 1967, and then possibly in 1968 by Raimo Rinne.

F3-18-65 The car obviously exists to-day. According to my notes, it was first raced at the Roskilde Ring in Denmark, May 2nd 1965 by Jens Christian Legarth winning. Legarth retired from racing after that season and Ole Vejlund took over in 1966 and in 1967 Kurt Seerup raced it. All from Denmark.

F3-24-65 Ulf Svensson bought the car new and raced it first time in Sept. 1965 and kept it for the 1966 season. 1967 it was raced by Curt-Rune Johansson (sometimes entered as BT 18) and 1968-69 by Jan-Olof Persson. It was then frequently entered as BT16, 18 and 21 which can add confusion. "Easier to get entries with a "newer" car" as Jan-Olof said.

Sorry, nothing new about F3-21-65.

[allenbrown]

Welcome Hagis! This is very useful hole-filling.

[Chris Townsend]

Welcome Hagis

Were you making notes at many Scandanavian races during the 60s?
You can be of great help to us..
The attribution of F3-7-65 to Goodwin is based on an observation of the car in Goodwin team use 13 March 1965 - maybe it went to Troberg after that as it doesn't appear in UK observations in 1966. I'd always figured that Goodwin bought an extra BT15 or two for 1966, and that one of them was Troberg's. I thought, however, that it might have been F3.1.65, which is a Goodwin car in 1966.
Cole's car was noted as F3.10.65 on 18 Sept 65

Chris

[Denis Lupton]

Regarding the Dave Rees and Picko Troberg car's,these were 2 separate
identities. At Monaco, 29/5/65, Picko's yellow BT15 qualified 9th in the first heat, and finished 16th, whilst Dave's orangy/red BT15 qualified 17th and retired after 3 laps with mechanical failure. I have photos of both car's in the pits at this meeting.
I've always thought Troberg's car war F3-4-65, and the Goodwin / Rees car
F3-7-65, but I'd be pleased for any confirmation.
Denis

[Denis Lupton]

Sorry for the lapse of concentration, both cars ( Troberg and Rees ) ran in the first heat at Monaco.
Denis

[Hagis]

Chris & Denis,

I have to check this with the Picko-car. Of course it couldn´t be the same car as they started in the same race, Sometimes you do notes but don´t note where they came from. But have patience, because I have some other work to do to-day.

Yes, I was around in Sweden and Denmark in the late 60-ies, but to be honest, made no notes of chassis-nos then, so that has been made later from other´s sources.

[Chris Townsend]

F3-7-65 could be Troberg's car and Rees still appear with him at Monaco. Goodwin had two or three BT15s and a BT9 in 1965 so it could be Rees was in another car

Chris

[phdm]

I recently received a copy of a document which is said to be the Brabham BT15 records.
Unfortunately I have only one page which covers cars F3-10-65 to F3-16-65.

F3-10-65
1965 David Cole
1966 David Cole - sold by Frank Williams in Sweden
1967 Kaj Godenbjelm sold to Raimo Rinne

F3-11-65
1965 R. Caumont
1966 J. Ralph (supplied wih new 1966 frame)
1967 J. Ralph
1968 Valentino Musetti FF
1969 Brian Jordan
Derek Williams
Race Development Eng Co
(John Howell)
(Bob Wick...) [can't read !]
FF RDE
1970 Brian Jordan
Ma... [can't read]

F3-12-65
1965 Pierre-Yves Gaggio
1966 Pierre-Yves Gaggio F3
1967 J. Guido

F3-13-65
1965 Manfred Mohr
1966 Manfred Mohr
1968 ?
1969 Karl Starke F3 Novamotor (66)

F3-14-65
1965 M. Stephanie
1966 M. Stephanie

F3-15-65
1965 A. J. Huggett
1966 A. J. Huggett
1967 Tony Huggett
sold to Mike Watkins
1968 Mike Watkins
Fred Opert (USA)

F3-16-65
1965 Sc. Martinelli - Sonvico (Regazzoni)
1966 Martinelli - Sonvico (Regazzoni F3)

[allenbrown]

What an intruiging document!

[Denis Lupton]

Still at Monaco, 29/5/65, another Goodwin entry in Heat 1, F3-6-65, driven
by John Cardwell ,on pole and finished first. On the front row in the final,
finished 12th. Photos taken at Monaco show both the Rees and Cardwell cars to be the same colour, maybe a team thing??.
Denis

[phdm]

I just had an interesting conversation with Manfred Mohr.

He says he bought a new car (BT9) from Brabham in 1964 (mid-season).
He sold the car to a Swiss driver (Franz) at the end of 1964.

He bought in 1965 a new car (BT15) from Brabham.
He sold this car at the end of the season to Dieter Bentz.
The car did not have a German logbook when driven by Mohr who was competing with a Swiss team and under Swiss licence.

In 1966, Brabham were late in delivering the cars so Mohr bought a second hand car which was the 1965 BT15 from Kurt Ahrens. He says also used this car in the 1967 Temporada.

[Chris Townsend]

Mohr appears August 64 with a BT9 entered by Squadra Arena.
I wonder if Franz is Franz Doeflinger? However, Squadra Arena still has a BT9 in 1965 which is wheeled out for Martin Stephani and Mohr...maybe Stephani also had a new BT9 at the same time.

The first BT15 must be chassis 13 which we know was raced later by Benz. The second car... Maybe Kurt Ahrens was simply dealing it, as he never raced a BT15 to my knowledge. I'd still stick with the MN report of the time, where Mohr himself said the car was originally Dubler's. I'm now looking at a chain that goes Dubler to Vianini for Temporada 1966, then Ahrens back to Mohr until early 1967.

Chris

[Chris Townsend]

Sorry but a kitchen crisis [new bread knife, wife missing part of finger] meant that I couldn't edit my last post.
There is something revealing in the Ahrens remark by Mohr and I had just found out what when the screaming started.

What Mohr bought from Ahrens was his BT16 [F2.3.65] MN 23.1.69 feature says he bought an 'ex Ahrens' Brabham with Dieter Bonhorst. He used this in 1966 and took it to the 67 Temporada. For 68 he was promised a works de Sanctis but it never arrived and he carried on with the BT16, finally selling it to Gagliardi.

So does Mohr first use the ex Dubler-Viannini BT15 as MN 19.1.67 suggests and then discard it in favour of the Ahrens car, or does he just get the BT16?

Chris

[allenbrown]

Your wife works with her hands. I will be fretting until I hear a medical update.

[phdm]

Chris,

Manfred Mohr does actually not remember the model numbers. He said he bought the car from Ahrens in 1966 and it was the same model as his own car the year before. I therefore assumed it was a BT15, which was probably my mistake. However I still see many race results of Manfred Mohr in 1966 driving a BT15 entered by Ecurie Fribourgeoise.

He did not mention anything about Jürg Dubler, buy I did not ask him either.

Franz is the last name. Could he be Willy Franz ?

[Chris Townsend]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Your wife works with her hands. I will be fretting until I hear a medical update.

Lots of blood, bit of flap of skin, nothing too serious, will live without surgery or transfusion. Actually I do most of the stuff in the kitchen, precisely because Mrs Townsend has a habit of leaving her fingers under things she's trying to cut. [She has about the same relationship to space as Driftwood on this forum does to typing...] Fortunately my beautiful new breadknife appears unscarred by the incident.

Mohr has BT15 at Monaco, 1966; Chimay; after that its just given as a Brabham

Chris

[tim beardsley]

BT15 F3-33-66 That to me sounds like my Dads car ( Ian Beardsley) that he used on the hill in early 70s. Yes we did have an old Waring and Gillow truck and i do remember him having a Centaur afterwards. I will get onto him to get on this site so he can fill you in on any more info.

Tim Beardsley

[allenbrown]

Here's something else about the fate of a Dubler Brabham - from crash forum at fameflame.dk:

Originally Posted by woodymcruk

It was at the start of the final heat when "Geki" had the accident with his Matra. The drivers that were following him, namely Beat, Jurg Dubler, Foresti and "Tiger" went out of the track too. Slightly injured, Fehr Beat jumped out of his car and tried to make the forthcoming drivers aware of the accident, waving in the middle of the track. As any witness would expect, poor Fehr was unavoidable for the package, and was rammed over. He died as result of it. This was a tragic race, as it also claimed the lives of both the nicknamed drivers : “Geki” and “Tiger”.

Fehr Beat was 24 and had been born in Zurich. He strated racing in 1963, and after some experience with Alfa Romeo, Cooper and DeTomaso, he bought from his friend Jurg Dubler a F3 Brabham. Soon before the Caserta race he had finished second at the Wangen Slalom.

The accident was at Caserta on 18 June 1967 so I'd assume this was Dubler's 1966 car. Was that a BT15 Chris?

Allen

[phdm]

Originally Posted by allenbrown

Here's something else about the fate of a Dubler Brabham - from crash forum at fameflame.dk:

The accident was at Caserta on 18 June 1967 so I'd assume this was Dubler's 1966 car. Was that a BT15 Chris?

Allen

Allen,

This is basically the same as what was said before (#78), coming from the Dubler's book.

Originally Posted by phdm

- Beat Fehr drives Dubler's BT15 (or is it a BT18 as indicated in Formula2.net ?) from the previous season at Caserta in June 1967. Beat Fehr is killed at that race.

[allenbrown]

Sorry Philippe - I forgot that. I did a search for Fehr on the thread and found nothing - I guess I must have mistyped it.

[Chris Townsend]

Dubler has a BT15 in 1966/early 67 which is, necessarily I think, different from the 1965 car - sold to Viannini and then wherever. I have a note of this as being the Scuderia Sorocaima car of Ghezzi from 1965 [F3.17.65], so this presumably would be Fehr's car.

Chris

[phdm]

What is that BT15 #11 for sale by RM Auctions ?