The Future of F3

[edenrace]

I ran an F1 team in the 70s with 2 mechanics on 1 car and 1 engineer same as F3 today.......things move on so lets forget about what was done in the past it will not come back.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by Andrew Kitson

Kenny's dad wasn't mechanic, Paul Thompson was, who was works mechanic at Royale in FF1600 for Yves Sarazin in '77 and Kenny in '78. Designers Rory Byrne ( 1977 ) then Pat Symonds ( 1978 ) as the engineers..in the proper days when 'engineers' ( like Paul ) were called mechanics, as they should be. I was team gofer at Royale in '78. Paul went on to Eddie Jordan's F1 team. Rory as we know went to help form Toleman Racing in F2 in '78 and took Pat with him later...both on to greater things.
Chris Craft told me when he did F3...long long ago in the 60s..he'd spend all summer taking his car around Europe, on a trailer, earning enough prize money to live and move on to the next event the next weekend. Many Brits did it, gypsies on the road. Yes times have changed..more professional..but far too extreme, it has again gone back to a sport for the very very wealthy at most levels.

Ah, cheers for the correction Andrew. Kenny was a bit before my time, though my dad would undoubtedly know as well. It was great to see Kenny's March out at Mallory last Wednesday when I was out in my Formula Ford.

Yep, the professionalism has definitely got out of hand. Far too much money floating around in some quarters, but not all.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by edenrace

I ran an F1 team in the 70s with 2 mechanics on 1 car and 1 engineer same as F3 today.......things move on so lets forget about what was done in the past it will not come back.

But what if some of the ways things were done were better 'back then'? Just because it was the past doesn't necessarily mean we have improved since then. Teams have become too bloated creating unnecessary costs for drivers. They're like a star, once they grow too big, eventually they will collapse - as we are witnessing now.

If you think things are all fine and rosy now then I'd hate to see what things are like when you start complaining like the rest of us!

[Andrew Kitson]

Yes well aware those days won't come back edenrace. If you are who I think you are, dangerous days too, your F2 driver nearly took my head off at the Mallory Esses in F2 1971! I was just saying that it was very carefree back then, hand to mouth yet still able to be succesful and get results on track..But far too expensive today with little chance for the average guy to get anywhere near top line FF, let alone F3. But it has been like that for a long time yet getting worse.

[EastonNeston]

Barnettracing,

F3 teams 'bloated', the team I know best in the series have 2 mechanics & 1 engineer per car, plus there are 2 truck drivers split between the four cars.
On occasions the team owner is also with the team, but his time is split between all the teams the company runs.

All of the team have been averaging 12 hour days leading into the season, so please explain how they are 'bloated' and where the savings could be made?

On the subject of F3, I trust the statements from 'Strider' & 'Edenrace', they are both very respected & knowledgeable professionals in the industry.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Barnettracing,

F3 teams 'bloated', the team I know best in the series have 2 mechanics & 1 engineer per car, plus there are 2 truck drivers split between the four cars.
On occasions the team owner is also with the team, but his time is split between all the teams the company runs.

All of the team have been averaging 12 hour days leading into the season, so please explain how they are 'bloated' and where the savings could be made?

On the subject of F3, I trust the statements from 'Strider' & 'Edenrace', they are both very respected & knowledgeable professionals in the industry.

And that's your opinion and prerogative. I'm perfectly happy with that, that is what an internet forum is for after all.

Personally, I feel, even at the numbers you have described, it is too high. Why should you need three people to run one racing car? I'm sure you'll tell me that the engineer is required in order to direct the mechanics and analysis the data logging data. But why is that needed? Previously a car could be run by one mechanic. Yes, that was before data logging etc, but why does it have to be that complicated?

A single-seater racing car shouldn't be that complex. It has adjustable camber/caster/toe etc, bump and rebound, spring rate, anti-roll, ride height and I suppose wings on the aero cars (I'm sure I have missed more). Surely these are parameters that can be easily adjusted by just one person. They certainly are on a FF1600 car (or even a Formula Ford EcoBoost car). Yes, they aren't a F3 car, but why does a Dallara F312 have to be so much more complex to work on?

Maybe it is not the teams' fault that numbers of staff have risen (and you can't deny they have) but then somewhere down the line someone has caused this to happen.

If it is 'professionalism' that has caused this then I have already quite clearly pinned my colours to the mast.

[EastonNeston]

Two Mechanics & an engineer per car has been the norm in F3 for at least 20 years, even in class B.
The number of possible adjustments to an F3 car, and the subtle changes possible mean it is easier, & more efficient, to work with two mechanics per car. A F3 car is infinitely more complex than a fford car which is unresponsive to subtle changes, particularly cars from the Zetec era.
Having seen how long and hard F3 mechanics and engineers work, the claims by Barnettracing, who has no experience above clubbie FF1600, are totally wrong.

[bella]

let's not disappear beneath a pile of pompous arsery here. i'm not totally convinced *either* of you have personal *hands on* experience of f3. so lets not go around pointing fingers.

in its current format it's fair that f3 needs a couple of mechanics and an engineer per car.

what we're saying is it needs to change. and IN THAT CONTEXT it's absolutely mental that 3 people can be kept busy for 12 hours a day running a single racing car that isn't a f1 car.

[edenrace]

F1 car ...lets say 20 people for 1 car...my son works for a top F1 team so i do have some idea ....3 for a F3 car is totaly reasonable

[davyboy]

Two points here :

o Rather than justify why the costs are so great, it may be better to approach it from the other end and figure out how much a championship challenging season in Britain's premier single seater category should cost. If, as a category, F3 can't come in at that level... then the MSA must either decide on an alternative or work with the FIA to make F3 come in at that level.

o Taking this beyond the budget setting for a moment. If the cost above is to be £250K for example, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate how a potential commercial backer [or suite of backers] could derive at least a £250K domestic ad buy in order that drivers and teams could sell this proposition on.

[bella]

Originally Posted by davyboy

o Taking this beyond the budget setting for a moment. If the cost above is to be £250K for example, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate how a potential commercial backer [or suite of backers] could derive at least a £250K domestic ad buy in order that drivers and teams could sell this proposition on.

i agree with you here. i really think the key to a sustainable series nowadays is a strong leadership and marketing team looking after the promotion of the series and event as a whole though. brand association is important - create a strong, cost effective concept that companies are proud to associate themselves with.

[Richard B]

Originally Posted by edenrace

F1 car ...lets say 20 people for 1 car...my son works for a top F1 team so i do have some idea ....3 for a F3 car is totaly reasonable

Like many industries it's not a question of how many people you have it's when you need them. In car sales management (of which I do have considerable experience) you need 1 sales person when it's quiet but 5 when it's busy.
1 mechanic is reasonable in F3 if the car is rolled out of the transporter, driver sticks it on pole and wins with no drama. You will need more if the car(s) has problems in qualifying then smashes into his team mate in the Sunday morning race, requiring both team cars to be emptied of gravel and repaired before the Sunday afternoon race.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by bella

let's not disappear beneath a pile of pompous arsery here. i'm not totally convinced *either* of you have personal *hands on* experience of f3. so lets not go around pointing fingers.

in its current format it's fair that f3 needs a couple of mechanics and an engineer per car.

what we're saying is it needs to change. and IN THAT CONTEXT it's absolutely mental that 3 people can be kept busy for 12 hours a day running a single racing car that isn't a f1 car.

I'm not involved in F3 in anyway shape or form Bella, nor am I purporting to. Nor am I trying to point fingers at anyone on here. What I was trying to say is exactly what you have stated in your post; that 3 people to run one racing car, at this level, in my opinion, is excessive and obviously unnecessarily adds to the costs.

Originally Posted by davyboy

Two points here :

o Rather than justify why the costs are so great, it may be better to approach it from the other end and figure out how much a championship challenging season in Britain's premier single seater category should cost. If, as a category, F3 can't come in at that level... then the MSA must either decide on an alternative or work with the FIA to make F3 come in at that level.

o Taking this beyond the budget setting for a moment. If the cost above is to be £250K for example, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate how a potential commercial backer [or suite of backers] could derive at least a £250K domestic ad buy in order that drivers and teams could sell this proposition on.

All of this is exactly spot on. I can't really add any more to this.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Two Mechanics & an engineer per car has been the norm in F3 for at least 20 years, even in class B.

And what I'm trying to argue is that, even if something is the norm, doesn't necessarily make it right. But, it looks like we are going to have to agree to disagree.

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

The number of possible adjustments to an F3 car, and the subtle changes possible mean it is easier, & more efficient, to work with two mechanics per car. A F3 car is infinitely more complex than a fford car which is unresponsive to subtle changes, particularly cars from the Zetec era.

Although 'unresponsive to subtle changes' is subjective depending on the car you are working on but, as someone who runs an ex-Zetec car I would contend this point. Subtle changes can definitely be felt but, and this would apply to any racing car, this is down to the responsiveness to the driver; some cars will accentuate changes, but ultimately it is down to the driver's feel, as you will know.

Originally Posted by EastonNeston

Having seen how long and hard F3 mechanics and engineers work, the claims by Barnettracing, who has no experience above clubbie FF1600, are totally wrong.

I'm not saying that the mechanics or engineers in F3 don't work hard, I'm just wondering (as I have no experience in the area) if they are truly needed. Even if they do make working on the car more efficient, does the increased efficiency in this case outweigh increased costs of having to pay for the mechanics wages, accomodation, food etc at each meeting?

[EastonNeston]

Even the 'F3 cup' cars testing at Oulton Park last week were using two mechanics per car, which does suggest that even at that level it is the most efficient way of preparing and running the cars.
If you look beyond racing you will find that all sports now have a larger 'support' staff as advances in sports science and coaching etc are used.

One thing that is lacking from BF3 is any sort of promotion from SRO, or even providing the teams with a sensible calender that doesn't involve races at opposite ends of Europe on successive weekends.

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by davyboy

Taking this beyond the budget setting for a moment. If the cost above is to be £250K for example, then it should be readily possible to demonstrate how a potential commercial backer [or suite of backers] could derive at least a £250K domestic ad buy in order that drivers and teams could sell this proposition on.

As a rough guide, for £250,000 an advertiser could reach around 40,000,000 "impacts" with an advertisement campaign of 30 second ads with a mix of terrestrial and satellite broadcasters in the UK. That is a substancial campaign which costs just under £6.50 (the rate varies and is negotiable) for each thousand viewers of your message.

How can a junior category conceivably compete with this? It's simply too expensive to be taken seriously I'm afraid, unless you get really lucky and find a CEO who is a racing fan with a cash pile to burn.

This is why sponsorship within national junior categories is almost always a myth. The "sponsors" are usually "patrons" which is a completely different thing. If you google the companies you see on the sides of most cars you will find a link back usually to the drivers' families, who are simply diverting cash in a more tax efficient way than simply giving it to their chosen one.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by Flavio Galtieri

As a rough guide, for £250,000 an advertiser could reach around 40,000,000 "impacts" with an advertisement campaign of 30 second ads with a mix of terrestrial and satellite broadcasters in the UK. That is a substancial campaign which costs just under £6.50 (the rate varies and is negotiable) for each thousand viewers of your message.

How can a junior category conceivably compete with this? It's simply too expensive to be taken seriously I'm afraid, unless you get really lucky and find a CEO who is a racing fan with a cash pile to burn.

This is why sponsorship within national junior categories is almost always a myth. The "sponsors" are usually "patrons" which is a completely different thing. If you google the companies you see on the sides of most cars you will find a link back usually to the drivers' families, who are simply diverting cash in a more tax efficient way than simply giving it to their chosen one.

Absolutely correct. Also worth adding that very few companies have a 'sponsorship' budget per se, so national level motorsport is competing with TV, radio, press, outdoor posters, internet, etc, etc for spend - which is where the cost per thousand (as quoted) falls over by comparison.

Also the actual sponsorship fee is only the start of the spend, as any real commercial sponsor will need to activate it with other activity both on event and around the events, which will cost them the same again. So a £250,000 'sponsorship' actually costs a brand £500K.

[davyboy]

So bringing this back to reality for a moment.

If the actual budget is GBP550K-GBP750K, then a commercial sponsor would need to commit to somewhere in the region of GBP1.1M-GBP1.5M ?

So what exposure do they actually receive for such a gigantic outlay - 25 minutes at 7:00am on Channel 4 and two men and his dog at the events themselves ?

Is it any wonder that genuinely talented drivers like Scott Malvern have no hope of progressing and that much of the 'talent pool' in BF3 is made up of kids of uber rich dads or uber rich sugar daddys [ahem patrons].

Surely a dozen of these individuals circulating with almost nobody watching can't be considered Britain's premier racing category, can it ? Something's very seriously awry if it can.

[JohnMiller]

Originally Posted by bella

i really think the key to a sustainable series nowadays is a strong leadership and marketing team looking after the promotion of the series and event as a whole though. brand association is important - create a strong, cost effective concept that companies are proud to associate themselves with.

You are right, no doubt. Though some will argue until their series is defunct, like the one that went this week after 23 years.

I am 100% certain that there are solid reasons why pretty much the only genuinely full grids this year are:

Formula Renault 3.5,
European Formula 3 Open and
Formula Renault Eurocup.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You are right, no doubt. Though some will argue until their series is defunct, like the one that went this week after 23 years.

I am 100% certain that there are solid reasons why pretty much the only genuinely full grids this year are:

Formula Renault 3.5,
European Formula 3 Open and
Formula Renault Eurocup.

Yep, value for money in comparison to their competitors. All three are supplying a better product at better costs. The problem is, even the cost of a Euro F3 Open or Renault Eurocup seat is too much for most drivers (look at Scott Malvern).

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by davyboy

So bringing this back to reality for a moment.

If the actual budget is GBP550K-GBP750K, then a commercial sponsor would need to commit to somewhere in the region of GBP1.1M-GBP1.5M ?

So what exposure do they actually receive for such a gigantic outlay - 25 minutes at 7:00am on Channel 4 and two men and his dog at the events themselves ?

Is it any wonder that genuinely talented drivers like Scott Malvern have no hope of progressing and that much of the 'talent pool' in BF3 is made up of kids of uber rich dads or uber rich sugar daddys [ahem patrons].

Surely a dozen of these individuals circulating with almost nobody watching can't be considered Britain's premier racing category, can it ? Something's very seriously awry if it can.

Yes except that there are no commercial sponsors, it's a myth and the reason being that. as you point out, C4 at 7.00am isn't exactly peak audience material. You wouldn't raise enough viewers to sponsor a Formula Ford 1600 at Mallory Park let alone a F3 season.

Motors TV, whilst great fun for you and I, has no worthwhile viewership for a national sponsor. The figures are tiny, sometimes so small they don't register. Clubs pay to have their events televised, so it's more akin to vanity publishing than anything else. It allow's people to tell their pals that they are on TV that's all.

[CATMAN]

If you look at most of the various formula series there are a couple of mechanics per car and and an engineer. Spend any length of time in a pit lane garage or race truck awning and the team staff are all working.
In between runs cars are stripped, parts cleaned wing settings changed, gears are changed depending on results or up coming weather conditions and that's without damage changes.
Take a look at the Carlin web site and the different series they run in. They list 23 staff involved in the direct running of 6 F3 cars and that doesn't include all the truckies who double up with race work over the weekend, plus Carlin and other teams often have engineers from engine and damper suppliers.
If Carlin need 4+ people per car how does anyone expect others to have half a chance of competing with one mechanic and one engineer?
Messrs Fantin, Sainz, Jaffar and Magnussen Senior and their wives, offspring and driver's girls and pals are not likely to part with 600k plus budgets fly in to races to support their pride and joy and then get kicked down the paddock ticket in hand for a burger and fries at Chez F3 Greasy Joes communal circuit F3 eatery.
I'll be the first to agree that their is "bloat" but you are looking in the wrong place
As for the theory on 250k sponsorship deals. Pie in the Sky! British F3 just doesn't have a big enough profile, air time or popular main stream viewing time coverage. With the current fiasco continuing with multi car team dominating how big a mug would a CEO be to put a large wedge of hard earned with the also ran teams.

[CATMAN]

Originally Posted by JohnMiller

You are right, no doubt. Though some will argue until their series is defunct, like the one that went this week after 23 years.

I am 100% certain that there are solid reasons why pretty much the only genuinely full grids this year are:

Formula Renault 3.5,
European Formula 3 Open and
Formula Renault Eurocup.

And I'm sure you are correct and that there are very solid reasons.
Of those three.
How many 6 or 5 car teams are there?
British F3 has been _ _ _ _ _d by the multi car team fiasco.

[barnettracing]

Originally Posted by CATMAN

Messrs Fantin, Sainz, Jaffar and Magnussen Senior and their wives, offspring and driver's girls and pals are not likely to part with 600k plus budgets fly in to races to support their pride and joy and then get kicked down the paddock ticket in hand for a burger and fries at Chez F3 Greasy Joes communal circuit F3 eatery.
I'll be the first to agree that their is "bloat" but you are looking in the wrong place

I probably am looking in the wrong place. In fact, I'm probably reverse-engineering my argument based on the ridiculous number of people that are needed to run two F1 cars these days (do they really need to be that complicated?)

As you say, if Carlin have 4 people per car, then how do you expect a smaller team to compete (though it ultimately depends on the knowledge/skill of the people who are doing the work too). I just find it strange that four people are needed to run on single-seater racing car. As I've said, that is just my opinion.

With regards to the expectations of the financiers, no wonder they expect luxury dining when they are spending £550-750k/season. If costs were dramatically reduced then they wouldn't expect such service. And anyway (I know the answer before I've asked it but) why do you need such treatment when you've paid to sponsor a racing car. If you wanted to eat well, for £600k/annum you could probably have breakfast, lunch and dinner at the Ritz every day, for you and your friends!

'Professionalism' has certainly improved many things; safety (and along those lines, build quality etc.) but there are many elements which I think are blighting the sport. Just because something is 'professional' doesn't instantly make it better. I'm sure some long-time followers of rugby union would agree/have something to say about that...

[Flavio Galtieri]

Originally Posted by barnettracing

Just because something is 'professional' doesn't instantly make it better. I'm sure some long-time followers of rugby union would agree/have something to say about that...

The irony is of course that the only professionals are those employed by the teams. The drivers are all amateur, in the truest sense of the word, in so much as they are paying to race for the love of the sport, not for an income.

At least Rugby players actually get paid....