History of the Gibson Nissan GTR

[Bigguy]

Came across this gem, giving a blow by blow of the Nissan GTR's history in Australian Motor Racing.

http://www.overflow.250x.com/Obakemono%20Downunder.html

Well worth a read!

[GTRMagic]

Certainly is well worth a read The Nissan Skyline GT-R and the Gibson Motorsport team were the best touring car and team in Australia by a long stretch at the time.

But it doesnt get too involved in the history that led Nissan to that point. The years of 1.8L turbo Bluebirds that had unfathomable boost pressures to keep up with the V8s, the wonky DR30 Skylines that looks like the front and the back of the cars didnt talk to each other, or indeed the anaemic HR31 Skyline that was strangled by a tiny turbocharger.

Nissan built a better mousetrap and were penalised for it. That Ford (or Andy Rouse anyway) couldnt get an AWD Sierra Sapphire to work is hardly Nissan's fault....

[GROUPA]

Remember Sksifes roll at Adelaide...that was a classic

[GTRMagic]

Sure was.. and it was the brand spanker too... oh well, plenty of money back in those days to fix things...

[Chucky]

Yes, and thanks to the powers that were, we know have one less manufacturer who is interested in Australian Motorsport.

I count this as one of the darkest tales of CAMS mismanagement.

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally posted by GTRMagic
That Ford (or Andy Rouse anyway) couldnt get an AWD Sierra Sapphire to work is hardly Nissan's fault....

Did Ford actually do this though? I don't recall anything.
The Cossie Sierra Sapphire came out after the chosen Group A weapon and did very well in its home contries so I don't think Ford would have had any reason too have a race version.

[William Dale Jr]

I thought the Sapphire didn't come out until 1990, by which time Group A was in it's last year (of sorts) in the BTCC. What benefit would it have been to Rouse to develop a car that would have been extinct within a year? While Sapphires did carry on in the BTCC into 1991, no-one had any real success with them; in fact, the turbo-less RS Cossies did better than them...

Also, did I once read somewhere that Dick Johnson had a Sapphire shell at the workshop all ready to fit out into a race car? Was that true?

[GTRMagic]

There was an AWD Sierra as well, used in WRC.... which was th ebasis for it

[William Dale Jr]

Yeah, Stuart Turner admitted that Ford took too long to produce the AWD Sierra. Perhaps if it came out a little earlier and Group A had lasted a little longer...apart from the AWD components, the rest were all from the RS500. Sending 550+ hp through all four wheels would have solved their rear tyre woes. Sure, it might not have handled too well, but it's not like the RS500 ever did.

[pete55]

If a reasonable turbo/4WD equivalency factor in Gr.A was implemented, Gr.A would still be running today in my opinion.

[KA]

Originally posted by William Dale Jr
I thought the Sapphire didn't come out until 1990, by which time Group A was in it's last year (of sorts) in the BTCC. What benefit would it have been to Rouse to develop a car that would have been extinct within a year? While Sapphires did carry on in the BTCC into 1991, no-one had any real success with them; in fact, the turbo-less RS Cossies did better than them...
Also, did I once read somewhere that Dick Johnson had a Sapphire shell at the workshop all ready to fit out into a race car? Was that true?

I can't see why Johnson would have wanted to do that- none of the RS500's evolution kit was homologated for the Sapphire AFAIK, and I can't imagine the car would have been competitive with RS500's in basic RS Cosworth form- unless DJ had some hint that Ford were looking at homologating an RS500 version of the Sapphire....

The Sapphire only ever raced in the BTCC in 2-litre non-turbo form- it first appeared when a class for the new 2-litre regs was first introduced in 1990, and Rouse built one for the new regs which was driven by Ray Bellm. (Rouse himself stuck to the 'big' class in the RS500). After the 2-litre rules took over fully in 91, Robb Gravett's Trakstar outfit tried the Sapphire route with little success. Dave Brodie also tried a 4x4 version of the Sapphire that year, but the car only appeared a few times

[Timu]

I remember last year, Mark Skaife saying that the GTR was actually a real 'handful" and "crude" plus the drivability and power curves of the VX Commodore is a helluva alot nicer to drive for a lap!

[Bigguy]

Originally posted by Timu
I remember last year, Mark Skaife saying that the GTR was actually a real 'handful" and "crude" plus the drivability and power curves of the VX Commodore is a helluva alot nicer to drive for a lap!

Of course he would say that. But races are won by >lap times<, and there is absolutely no question that a Nissan GTR would wipe the floor with a Supercar. Obviously he is also comparing cars from a decade apart, and clearly, a GTR would be way better nowadays than when the Gibson team was running (tyres, ECU sophistication, shock technology, roll cage stiffness etc etc).

Methinks he had his red hat on

Of course he would say that. But races are won by >lap times<, and there is absolutely no question that a Nissan GTR would wipe the floor with a Supercar. Obviously he is also comparing cars from a decade apart, and clearly, a GTR would be way better nowadays than when the Gibson team was running (tyres, ECU sophistication, shock technology, roll cage stiffness etc etc).

You can't compare a twin-turbo car of that configuration against the heavier Commodore of even that time. Group A rules were very much in favour of the forced-fed brigade penalising cubes with weight rather than horsepower which it should have done. Even picking on the current crop of cars, you should remember that these cars are heavier and rev limited.

[Timu]

Remember that a V8 Supercar also could be a ****load more quicker aswell. Rev limits, Diff ratios, Downforce limits, Higher spec heads, and IRS for a start....

And for a naturally-aspirated 5.0l pushrod engines, the 635hp power figures are astounding!

We'll have to see how the new Generation GTRs go in Procar against the famous Monaro racers!

[LoTeC]

Originally posted by Timu

We'll have to see how the new Generation GTRs go in Procar against the famous Monaro racers!

i doubt the more production based gtr will be any where near the race built monaro. bring out a jgtc car i say, they have just about as much similarity to the road car they are derived from as the monaro

[Conrod Kieron]

Originally posted by KA
I can't see why Johnson would have wanted to do that- none of the RS500's evolution kit was homologated for the Sapphire AFAIK, and I can't imagine the car would have been competitive with RS500's in basic RS Cosworth form- unless DJ had some hint that Ford were looking at homologating an RS500 version of the Sapphire....

Add to this that the Sierra was to be replaced by the Mondeo. In a way, its odd Ford didn't use the stiffer Sapphire shell from day one, it was on the roads back in
87ish.


Saying the GTR would wipe the floor with a V8SC is a big call, obviously grabbing the GTR as last raced by Skaife wouldn't know which way the V8SC went but with a decade of development added to the GTR and a works team, it would be interesting.

[TSR]

AA has to try something to sell there mag

[TSR]

Sorry wrong thread

[racer69]

I'll have to dig through my old pile of Auto Action's, but i recall a story in there, probably from about 1991, where Johnson is talking about the new 4x4 Ford Escort Cosworth, and how that would form the basis for his 1993 Touring Car challenge. That was obviously before Channel 7/Holden/Ford/Shell got together and rail roaded CAMS into what we have now. He definatly had plans to them.

I also recall Johnson heading over the Europe, must have been the end of 1990, trying to talk Ford into homologating a 4WD Ford Sierra, so he could live with GTR's.

There is no point discussing whether a current day V8 would be faster than the Group A Nissan.

All that can be said is that when the 1992/93 spec V8s went up against the Nissan GTR's, they got caned by the Nissan, though they were abit under-developed then.

[Peregrine]

I'll back you there racer69. IIRC Dick had given up on the prospect of the Sapphire AWD and had started some serious investigations into the Escort Cosworth, as appeared in the WRC, for the 1993 season. The rest is history.....unfortunately.

[GTRMagic]

If my race car weighed almost 1,600kg full of juice on the grid I would think it was unweildy and horrible to drive to some extent too. Lets not forget there were no splitters on the GT-R, or massive rear wing like on the current speedsters....

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally posted by White Knight
You can't compare a twin-turbo car of that configuration against the heavier Commodore of even that time. Group A rules were very much in favour of the forced-fed brigade penalising cubes with weight rather than horsepower which it should have done. Even picking on the current crop of cars, you should remember that these cars are heavier and rev limited.

The Group A GT-R Skyline was about 300kg heavier than a Group A commodore.

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally posted by Bigguy
But races are won by >lap times<, and there is absolutely no question that a Nissan GTR would wipe the floor with a Supercar.

You're kidding right. The V8 Supercars of today, with all their technological advancements and freedoms are several seconds a lap quicker than Godzilla in its hey day.

In Group A, the Nissans had 100-150hp more than the Commodores, were 300-400kg heavier and had all wheel drive, they were otherwise quite similar.

Nowadays, the V8SC have bridged the power gap, gained proper aerodynamics and retained the healthy weight advantage. The Nissan would have only AWD in its favour. Not enough.

[deeks6]

Originally posted by Bigguy
Of course he would say that. But races are won by >lap times<, and there is absolutely no question that a Nissan GTR would wipe the floor with a Supercar.

...don't recall a Godzilla doing a 2.6.8 round Bathurst...unless you have info that I don't