What has happened to...? (Group C cars)

[rcarr]

I have had my "Endurance Racing 82-91 book for about 15 years now, I pick it up from time to time and wonder, where have some of these cars gone?

I know we have the Group C racing series back again with the usual Porsches, Jaguars, Spices, Tigas etc but I wonder about the other cars, the ADAs, I know that Lawrence Jacobsen had "02" and "03" was for sale the other month but "01"? The Ecosses, I know about. The CHEETAHs, very pretty looking 956/962-esque cars, etc.

These cars have seemed to have disappeared, are they in private collections, museums or being raced some where that we don't hear about? I am talking about the more obscure C2 cars than anything.

Does anyone know?
Thanks.

[minimangler]

Ask in the "historic racing today" forum, there's some super knowledgable chaps and chappesses down there.

[rcarr]

Would a nice forum moderator change it to the historic forum then please?

[KA]

Originally Posted by rcarr

I have had my "Endurance Racing 82-91 book for about 15 years now, I pick it up from time to time and wonder, where have some of these cars gone?

I know we have the Group C racing series back again with the usual Porsches, Jaguars, Spices, Tigas etc but I wonder about the other cars, the ADAs, I know that Lawrence Jacobsen had "02" and "03" was for sale the other month but "01"? The Ecosses, I know about. The CHEETAHs, very pretty looking 956/962-esque cars, etc.

These cars have seemed to have disappeared, are they in private collections, museums or being raced some where that we don't hear about? I am talking about the more obscure C2 cars than anything.

Does anyone know?
Thanks.

There are a few in the Louwman Collection museum in Holland- 1993 Toyota TS010, Kouros Sauber C8, C2 Mazda 737C and one of the original 1982 Lancia LC1 Group 6 Spyders that exploited the rule allowing 2litre Gr6 cars in the first season of Group C
http://www.louwmancollection.nl/

There used to be quite a few in Peter Kaus' Rosso-Bianco Collection in Germany but I think a lot were sold off a couple of years ago when the bulk of the collection was sold to the Louwmans Collection- a few pics (towards the bottom of the page)
http://www.shmoo.com/~bmc/photos/Car...anco%20Museum/

I know what you mean though-there were a lot of cars built by small privateer teams, particularly in C2, and they all seem to have disappeared- one or two have appeared in historic Group C, such as Duncan McKay's Arundel/Bardon C2, and I think the C1 EMKA-Astons which appeared in historic Group C a few years back were for sale recently, but a lot of them seem to have disappeared.

Sadly I reckon quite a few may have been lost- looking at the cars listed on the Group C Racing website for example, the entry for Carlo del Conte's ALD 06 mentions that it's the only surviving car- ALD built 8 chassis between 1985-91, so what happened to the others?
http://www.groupcracing.com/cars/48

[vorsprung]

A Gebhardt JC 85(?, black Lemon-Soda livery Jelinski car with IMSA GTP sticker) and ADA 02 are hanging on a wall next to Kouros Sauber C8 in Sinsheim museum.

[rcarr]

Thank you gents, I went to the Rosso Bianco Museum about 10 years ago with family friends, I got so excited when I saw the Kouros Sauber, it has always been my favourite Group C car, I have seen the C9 and C11 at the old Mercedes Museum in Stuttgart. On the same holiday we went to the Sinsheim Museum.

I know both Group 44 Jaguars are currently for sale and the NEWMAN Porsche is racing in the Group C championship now.

I didn't know about the Louwman Collection in Holland at all, I saw the TS010 race at Le Mans. I am sure its worth a visit, once I become better maybe I'll try and go.

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by vorsprung

A Gebhardt JC 85(?, black Lemon-Soda livery Jelinski car with IMSA GTP sticker) and ADA 02 are hanging on a wall next to Kouros Sauber C8 in Sinsheim museum.

I do think you are wrong about the chassis numbers, I think that car on the wall is the Gebhardt JC85 which is unofficially ADA 01. 02 was out testing in its yellow Virgin Cargo livery, as I saw it with Jacobsen driving it in c.93 at Ingliston, of course 02 was destroyed but rebuilt by the factory and 03 was built as a replacement.
03 is for sale, here is a pic of it:
http://www.racecarsdirect.com/viewimage.php?photo=16247
Here is 03 in the British C2 championship in 90
http://www.racingsportscars.com/phot...-09-16-030.jpg

[mountainstar]

I know a lot of IMSA Camel Lights cars(similar to C2) got chopped up in 1993, 1994, 1995 to make World Sports Car chassis.

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by mountainstar

I know a lot of IMSA Camel Lights cars(similar to C2) got chopped up in 1993, 1994, 1995 to make World Sports Car chassis.

This seems to have happened alot over the years, why? is the eternal question!

We owned a supposedly Simpson C2 tub for a while, unused but it was certainly more than a Sports 2000 or a Thundersports tub. It was very well made but no chassis plate which made me sceptical of it, however the Simpson chassis' were apparently Chevron derived? There was 1 car that made it into a couple of races but another chassis that was never used, maybe the ours?

[vorsprung]

Originally Posted by rcarr

I do think you are wrong about the chassis numbers, I think that car on the wall is the Gebhardt JC85 which is unofficially ADA 01

I have no idea about chassis numbers. I basically just repeated what the signs by the three cars said: "Gebhardt JC85 Gruppe C", "ADA 02 Engineering LTD" and "Sauber Mercedes 'Kouros'".

[rcarr]

Originally Posted by vorsprung

I have no idea about chassis numbers. I basically just repeated what the signs by the three cars said: "Gebhardt JC85 Gruppe C", "ADA 02 Engineering LTD" and "Sauber Mercedes 'Kouros'".

Sorry, I just know this from what I've read and also I do a hell of alot of my own research on cars and different race series. Also it helps that Lawrence raced 03 against my Dad in 93.

[mountainstar]

Originally Posted by rcarr

This seems to have happened alot over the years, why? is the eternal question!

We owned a supposedly Simpson C2 tub for a while, unused but it was certainly more than a Sports 2000 or a Thundersports tub. It was very well made but no chassis plate which made me sceptical of it, however the Simpson chassis' were apparently Chevron derived? There was 1 car that made it into a couple of races but another chassis that was never used, maybe the ours?

At that time Camel Lights was dead and it was expedient just to cut the roof off and make it into a WSC car. Race cars are tools and assets that one wants to get the best use of and value. A few Porsche 962's had their roofs chopped off as well and raced in Interserie and IMSA WSC. One won the 24hrs of Daytona in 1995.

[Dambuster]

ALD C289 Chassis 02 is for sale in the UK through Phil Stott Motorsport

[Thundersports]

You have to remember by the mid 90s these cars weren't worth much. In that period the only seriews you could run them was Interserie where they were uncompetitive. I guess some of the C2 oddities ended up hillcliming etc.

[Rudernst]

The original Dow Corning EMKA Aston Martin that briefly led the 1985 race and bet the works Jaguar entry is with me und undergoing a comprehensive rebuild.

That is still the last Aston Martin engined car to have actually led the race.
Something that AMR has not managed since then despite spending considerable money.

Rudolf

[John Turner]

Rudolf, it's great that the EMKA Aston is in safe hands and look forward to seeing it out again.

However ........ whilst the rest of your comments may be baldly factual, they hardly reflect the true situation

1) The EMKA wasn't really that much on the pace, only finding itself first briefly due to being on a different pit stop strategy and the Jaguar it beat was the Group 44 XJR 5 which whilst it had Jaguar backing was not works designed or built car.
2) The late 1980s AMR 1 was actually a very good car and getting better; it's AMR 2 replacement would almost certainly have been on the pace but there was no way that Ford were going to throw money at two teams and allow an in house competition with the Jaguar XJR series which it also owned and was already better established
3) Astons return to racing in 2007 was a Dave Richards initiative and financed by ProDrive, not an AM financed one and was in the GT class anyway
4) When they entered the Lola Aston it was petrol driven and was not allowed a performance break to match the diesels. Nevertheless it was 4th overall and first in the petrol class, in 2009
5) By his own admission, Dave Richards says that the recent AMR -One spyder was a 'screw up'.
6) They are back to GT Classes now, so not after outright wins.

So, not only have most of their entries been in a class where the lead, let alone an outright win was not on the cards, you would have to conclude that the expenditure of 'considerable money' was not remotely on a par with the other manufacturers.

Ah, I feel better now! Now back to group Cs

[henk4]

http://www.groupcracing.com/

they will be out this weekend in Spa.

[Rudernst]

John,
I readyly admit, that my comment about Astons at Le Mans was a bit tonge in cheek, as was the orginal stunt that Micheal Cane pulled when they shortened their pitstop to lead the race in 1985.

The EmKa Aston Martin spent a lot of time in the top 5 during that race and certainly was not slow, otherwise there would have no way to get the car into the lead.

Later during the race the EmKa Aston Martin lost time in the pits due to minor niggles otherwise it would have finished higher up. This was mainly due to lack of money and development, proper testing would have prevented that.

Still that year, in 1985, it won the Motor Trophy for the first british car home.

I think the achievement of that car and that crew are totally underrated, given their resources.

Yes, AMR had much less money to spend than their rivals, and can rightly be proud of their achievements.
But is that applies to AMR, this applies even more to EmKA as they had much, much less money.

Anyway, after this interesting look back, the thread show go back to "Historic Racing Today".

BTW: The EmKa will be ready next year.

Rudolf

[John Turner]

Rudolf, I agree entirely that the achievements of the EMKA Aston are underrated and I really look forward to seeing it back on the tracks next year.

[John Turner]

Three here, so they are about:-

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listin...c_286_336.html

http://www.racecarsdirect.com/listin...undegardh.html

Sorry if this duplicates any previous posts

[henk4]

This weekend Frank Lyons races one of the two Gebhardt's built at Spa.