alfas???

kristof14 · 1 Jul 2001, 20:53 (Ref:111870)

whats happened to the alfas????????

pb btcc · 1 Jul 2001, 20:55 (Ref:111874)

I think there had engine problemsAGAIN

redshoes · 1 Jul 2001, 21:05 (Ref:111882)

sums it up nicely

Pinkney didn't show up for qualifying. Harvey blew one engine in free practice. The team did another quick change to for in Pinkney's old engine in time for qualifying but only manged two (very slow) laps and never made it into the race.

**bella** · 1 Jul 2001, 21:08 (Ref:111884)

(err, i'm sure we saw dave pinkney signing autographs today..)

**touringlegend** · 1 Jul 2001, 21:30 (Ref:111893)

You should have seen what Autosport put in their times along with the BTCC Tourers!
This:
9 Tim Harvey (JSM Alfa Romeo 147) 7m59.981s
>>10 Jon Dooley (Napolina Alfa Romeo Alfasud Ti) 9m43.185s<<

and this!
9 Harvey 3m57.289s
>>10 Bill McGovern (Hillman Imp) 5m42.396s<<
Mocking JSM i think!

redshoes · 1 Jul 2001, 21:53 (Ref:111899)

Quote:

Originally posted by bella
(err, i'm sure we saw dave pinkney signing autographs today..)

err... did I say he wasn't ?

Quote:

Pinkney didn't show up for qualifying

Bennett Fan · 1 Jul 2001, 22:42 (Ref:111918)

They must be getting fed up with changing engines at every meeting surely?

Eddie_harasym · 2 Jul 2001, 07:57 (Ref:111992)

I thought that after a reasonable showing at Oulton they would be well up there by now. Still nice to see them there evan if not on the track.

Super Tourer · 2 Jul 2001, 08:27 (Ref:111999)

I admire JSM for taking on the task of developing a BTC car, but I have always maintained that this task is way outside the resources of a pure privateer team. You only have to look at the progress (or lack of it) that Pug have made with their multi-million pound budget.

In Autosport, Tim Harvey alluded to the fact that the team had secured some more funding. In the absence of major sponsorship, presumably Dave P is only paying for the 2nd car, tyring to develop the car on a tight budget is a hard task.

The team is now going backwards, having essentially missed the last 4 races. I think they have reached the development plateau attainable on a tight budget. Engine work is almost prohibitvely expensive. I would imagine that JSM have tried to run the engine more on the'edge' to gain for power, this can turn put to be a bit of an expensive trial and error process and can lead to other problems.

When we raced in the BTCC back in '99 we tried to run our engines on the edge to counter lack of power. This resulted in two blown engines (requiring rebuilds at £7,500 a go) and a blown gearbox (£10,000 to repair) making a total of £25,000 in a weekend - just on repairs!

kristof14 · 2 Jul 2001, 17:42 (Ref:112160)

i know i'm prolly behind everyone lese here but who did u race with in '99????

arena? the privateer vauxhall?? or a works team????

Motorsport Fan · 2 Jul 2001, 18:28 (Ref:112176)

The other Alfa was not there because they are running out of money.

hunttheshunt · 2 Jul 2001, 18:54 (Ref:112196)

I really can't see JSM making it till the end of the year. They were behind Pug and ABG at Oulton anyway, and now they are in serious trouble w/their engiones and money. You kno the rule about 5 engines and you lose 15 points-Dave Pinkney could end up with negative points! Not a happy thought

Super Tourer · 2 Jul 2001, 19:58 (Ref:112218)

Kristof - To answer your question. I was with ADR Motorsport and Mark Blair back in '99. I was on the marketing/hospitality side and am proud to say that we brought brands like Virgin, Lee Jeans and GE Capital into the BTCC along with a host of other sponsors. We also entertained over 600 guests to hospitality over the 13 race meetings, all of whom had a pit garage tour by yours truly, and launched a new drinks brand via the BTCC.

For 2000 we had lots of promises for cars and planned a two car team.
We also had a major title sponsor for 2000 that was dependant on us running a certain make of car. Needless to say the said manufacturer that promised us cars (who will remain nameless) decided at the last minute not to make cars available to us. It later turned out that the route they thought the cars would take never materialised, so they sat idle for most of the year.

That's motorsport for you. I am no longer in motorsport, having a proper job in marketing.

Les · 2 Jul 2001, 20:40 (Ref:112236)

It's a pity there are so many problems with the engines. They were trying the new engine in Tim's and something that had never broke before, broke. Swindon tried to fix it all night with no sucess. They then cannibalised Dave's car and put in that engine, which they knew would not last very long,and it didn't.
For enthusiaism and guts they would beat Vauxhall everytime - they just need a break.
Richard West made the comment that he was going to see if they and Lexus wanted the help of a Ferrari designer!!!!! Now that could be interesting.

racer69 · 3 Jul 2001, 13:24 (Ref:112490)

Do you think the smallness of the car could have contributed, maybe if they had gone with a 156 it may have been better for packaging of parts.

I reckon they should concentrate on one car, with Harvey driving to develop it, then when the car is sorted expand to two cars.

redshoes · 3 Jul 2001, 17:30 (Ref:112583)

It's a shame to see JSM get into such a state. I think ABG have proved that it IS possible for a privateer to build and run BTC-T cars, but only just.

Looks like they are heading for the same way as CAM were they spend so much time fixing the problems that any real development just goes out of the window.

Don't think the choice of 147 over 156 makes that much difference. The 147 is essensially the same mechanicals as a 156 in a shorter body.

hunttheshunt · 3 Jul 2001, 20:44 (Ref:112648)

I do think though if JSM had gone for the 156 they may have recieved some help, in some kind of form, from Alfa themselves. I know Alfa wanted their Touring car to be the 156 and their production car the 147, and JSM went the other way and annoyed Alfa. With an ETCC/BTCC immenent from Alfa they could have supplied JSM with help as a prelude to entering.

Craigsy · 3 Jul 2001, 21:01 (Ref:112664)

Wouldn't the series organisers' money have been much better spent on support for a privateer team (or teams, no need to exclude ABG) which made a commitment, right from the off, to the whole series? Rather than, say, paying for someone who's basically a celebrity to run in a WORKS team in a deal which is only for five race meetings of the season?

And before anyone asks I DON'T have anything against Aaron Slight - I just think that JSM's troubles show there are better ways Octagon could have spent their money if they really have the good of the series at heart. I doubt there will be ANY privateer entries in the Touring class next year, if - as I suspect - the JSM experience is a rough guide.

redshoes · 3 Jul 2001, 21:13 (Ref:112671)

If BMP did support JSM and they did well we would be having the reverse arguement. It's a no win situation.

Les · 4 Jul 2001, 05:45 (Ref:112813)

As I said before they are looking into ways to help ABG & JSM. But you can't help that much when it's lack of time, money, experience.

I think both teams should have done a MG - loads of testing and come out with a race car that works.
OK that's what the brain thinks - the heart just says I am glad they were both there from day 1.

Super Tourer · 4 Jul 2001, 07:23 (Ref:112831)

Redshoes. I agree that ABG have almost done it but I feel the whole privateer situation boils down to totally unrealistic plans.

Take JSM, they were boldly stating that they would run a SIX car ( 4 Prod, 2 BCT) BTCC team, which was plainly a rash idea. Did they have any idea of the logistics and resources required to run 6 cars. Why did they try to run to TWO 147's ??? Find out the faults on the basic design and apply what you have learnt to a second car, when you are ready. At the moment they are just making themselves and the car look poor. Do they think this is the way to go about obtaining support from Alfa for 2002 ? - its not going to happen.

I've done the BTCC, I know what it costs in pure overheads alone, thats before you start laying a finger on the car and without the luxury of a development budget.

I know that the ABG's and JSM's of the world hope to land a works deal by going the route of building a car themselves. The sad truth is, that this nearly always backfires and ends up costing a lot of money for usually very little gain. Alfa don't want to see a 147 that they are promoting as a sporting car, trailing blue smoke on BBC TV every other weekend. And I doubt Lexus want to see their sporting (Luxury) saloon trailing a PUG and Vauxhall either. Its a plain fact that car makers have a defined 'message' and image for their cars - if they want to do the BTCC - they will do it themselves, not because a team has chosen to run a car off their own back. The stark reality is that if they do choose to go the BTCC route they will go to a proven BTCC team like, Prodrive, TWR, WSR, etc. Its a fact of life.

hunttheshunt · 4 Jul 2001, 18:17 (Ref:113052)

I think also a lot boils down to the fact that JSM and ABG were incredibly late getting their cars out of the blocks, lacked parts and have had no testing time at all. With some parts coming early, testing for a good 12 weeks they could have been mildly competitive. Remember it is also extremely difficult to run a brand new car to brand new regs efectively, which is what they are doing.

**touringlegend** · 4 Jul 2001, 20:32 (Ref:113103)

I don't blame Mr P. for leaving JSM. I mean would you like it if you seemed to be sidelined for another, highly-rated driver like Harvey?
Was Pinkney paying for his drive?

Kurt Luby left ABG because the team weren't doing well enough? I think he's been a bit early in making that decision. But there seems to be more to it than that, according to team manager Tim Blake who said Kurt was one of their 'many changes'.

Les · 4 Jul 2001, 20:35 (Ref:113104)

Was Dave paying for it - who else if not him?

**touringlegend** · 4 Jul 2001, 20:48 (Ref:113111)

I know sponsors would be paying for him, but was JSM 'part funding' the drive?

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