Ferrari P1 Rumours

[avvelenamento]

Bad seasons come an go. Before Schumacher golden-age, ferrari didn't win anything for almost 30 years. Williams was the greatest team in late '80-'90 now is in his darkest hour. McLaren too doesn't win anything since 2008, 9 after the mika hakkinen 1998-1999 championships. Redbull before 2009 rules wasn't a fantastic team. Ferrari is the f1 team that won more than anyone else in history, they don't need to prove anything to none. They can lose the next 10 championships in a row (and very likely they will lose), important for them is to get sponsor's money and have brand exposure. The interest for wec and sportscars is simply 0 apart from good or bad results in f1.
The rest are summer rumors and brabham flying in italy... wait 3 weeks and none will talk anymore about this ferrari p1 madness.

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Ferrari is the f1 team that won more than anyone else in history, they don't need to prove anything to none. .

That's history. Williams in 80s/90s. History. McLaren with Prost and Senna etc. History. You can't rest on your laurels for ever. Not with the financial commitments that are at stake in top flight motor racing.

[avvelenamento]

2009 and 2011 has been unsuccessfull seasons for ferrari but in 2010 and 2012 vettel won the title only in the last race against alonso. Ferrari is not as competitive as redbull but sincerly I can't see this "decadence". Ferrari still remains a top team and for sure the one that earns more each season. Difference between Williams and Ferrari at example is that Ferrari can survive also 20 bad seasons, without any backlash in their street car market, Williams needs paying drivers to survive.

[Dario911]

Ferrari has played till the last races in these years only due casuality, but not thanks to its cars. Alonso made the difference, while team has not proven to be able to design and develope a winning car.
About the term "crisis" related to Ferrari it's not an invention of mine...
How do you call a team wich is unable to design a winning car, unable to develope the car, unable to manage drivers and cars on the track? More than any other consideration, we can remember the last strategical choices "made in Ferrari", to understand how difficult is their position. Montezemolo has criticized very much the situation, and has decided to change some important things in the team.
Well, Ferrari remains a top team, I agree. But it's not certainly at the top of the list, now. Lotus (don't forget its bad economical situation...), Red Bull (always on top) and Mercedes (rising up race by race), are well ahead of Ferrari.
Williams has not the same economical and technical resources of Maranello, and so is far from the rest of the top teams. McLaren is paying a technical crisis, and is just behind Ferrari.
But Ferrari is there to win, and not to be only considered a top team.
Then, don't have to forget they've won the last title with Kimi thanks to the McLaren intestine war...
Montezemolo calls this situation "crisis", so I think he's not wrong...
I would like to see Ferrari competitive against Red Bull, Lotus and Mercedes, but they have to change a lot of things before of this.
And this is trying to do Montezemolo. But it's expensive, and requires time. So, I don't think they may try a risky business as Le Mans challenge, in the short time.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

That's history. Williams in 80s/90s. History. McLaren with Prost and Senna etc. History. You can't rest on your laurels for ever. Not with the financial commitments that are at stake in top flight motor racing.

That's the point!
Ferrari is not there just to fill the starting grid...
They race to win, but this is not happening since a long time.
In that world, is not possible to live of remembrance.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

The interest for wec and sportscars is simply 0 apart from good or bad results in f1.

I would not be so sure. If F1 advertising was the best one possible, and was good for Ferrari, I don't think they would have invested so much in GTE class, in WEC.
If F1 is all, I don't think they may be tempted to invest in a so competitive and expensive program. This may be a little step forward, but now it's not time to do other in that direction.
Let imagine a challenge Porsche Vs. Ferrari in Le Mans, as well in the WEC...
The most importante names of motorsport, face to face as in the goled era of motorsport.
This challenge would be capable to make the whole F1 season disappear! If you consider many other name such as Audi, Toyota, Nissan, Acura/Honda, Alpine (if they only decide to move in P1)...
Could you find so much manufacturers, with such names, in F1 now?
The only thing is playing in favour of F1 is TV coverage, that brings advertising.

[Adam43]

I assumed that Ferrari made money on their GT programme?

[Thaw Daggerslash]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I assumed that Ferrari made money on their GT programme?

Might do, although I believ from memory (someone can correct me if I'm wrong) that Porsche is one of very, very few manufacturers (if not the only one) to make a profit from their racing division simply because of how many cars they are able to sell and number of different GT categories around the world that there are.

[Adam43]

I thought that it was like the Porsche model?

As a T-Shirt, wallet and keying distributor I guess GT racing would be a good place for Ferrari to advertise their brand.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I thought that it was like the Porsche model?

As a T-Shirt, wallet and keying distributor I guess GT racing would be a good place for Ferrari to advertise their brand.

[avvelenamento]

Being the sportscars and GT section, there is no point to write about ferrari's performances in f1 championship. They will never win team championship again because montezemolo prefers to keep massa as second driver to promote the brand in south america, and they will unlikely win the driver championship again because reparto corse isn't able to develope a competitive car for the whole season for alonso. Past is past, we are watching present and none can't predict the future. I think that we all can agree with this point. But as I said some posts ago, there isn't simply any real reason for ferrari to step inside WEC. Financial benefits uncomparable to the F1, brand exposure uncomparabale to the F1, so what are we talking about? a rumor of endurance-info supported by nothing?
Wait for spa GP and this rumor will disappear for good.
By the way, Ferrari has an average f1 season budget of more than 300mln€. Reparto corse clienti involved in the 458 GT3 and GTE programs works with 10% of that.

[jimclark]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

(1) They will never win team championship again

(2)Financial benefits uncomparable to the F1, brand exposure uncomparabale to the F1, so what are we talking about?

(1) A rather bold statement...never is a very, very long time...

(2)I guess Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, Chrysler, BMW, Chevrolet, Honda, Toyota, Peugeot, and on and on disagree with you. But then; what do all these manufacturers know when there is you....

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by jimclark

(1) A rather bold statement...never is a very, very long time...

(2)I guess Audi, Ferrari, Porsche, Chrysler, BMW, Chevrolet, Honda, Toyota, Peugeot, and on and on disagree with you. But then; what do all these manufacturers know when there is you....

1. Never say never. Ferrari might come in Le Mans, but not in this moment.

2. You're wrong! All those manufacturers are there in Le Mans just to spend some time, just to waste a bit of money, just to do something interesting. Are not there to race, to experiment, to win, to have advertising!

[avvelenamento]

there isn't too much to joke. Montezemolo since 2000 prefers to have a second driver usefull more to be used as promoter for south american market than to win team championship. Of couse in future things will change, but won't change anything if montezemolo or his successor won't change his mind.
And about point 2, do you think that if toyota didn't retire from f1 because of 10 bad seasons, would step inside wec? In your opinion, having the necessary budget for an f1 season, a manufacturer will enter in f1 or wec? answer by your self, or make an experiment. Go outside and ask to 10 common people in a row if they like more f1 or wec. I am sure that they will answer "what is wec?". Is hard for wec give the same brand exposure of f1, when most of people don't even know what is it.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by Adam43

I assumed that Ferrari made money on their GT programme?

Im sure they do . Its the most expensive GTE car out there for a start , and AF Corse run 40 of them in different series for various people .

And that's just AF Corse !!!

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Im sure they do . Its the most expensive GTE car out there for a start , and AF Corse run 40 of them in different series for various people .

And that's just AF Corse !!!

How many of those are GT3s, though? And Mr. Michelotto has gone on record saying that they might not be able to justify developing another GTE-car with the way sales are going in GTE these days.

[Maelochs]

Doesn't matter how many are GT3s, so long as the cost is exceeded by the price, along with the spares, and all the team merchandise and whatever else Ferrari can wring out of the project --- plus the value of keeping up the image of Ferrari as a serious competitive sports car.

[Dario911]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

there isn't too much to joke. Montezemolo since 2000 prefers to have a second driver usefull more to be used as promoter for south american market than to win team championship. Of couse in future things will change, but won't change anything if montezemolo or his successor won't change his mind.
And about point 2, do you think that if toyota didn't retire from f1 because of 10 bad seasons, would step inside wec? In your opinion, having the necessary budget for an f1 season, a manufacturer will enter in f1 or wec? answer by your self, or make an experiment. Go outside and ask to 10 common people in a row if they like more f1 or wec. I am sure that they will answer "what is wec?". Is hard for wec give the same brand exposure of f1, when most of people don't even know what is it.

You make confusion about TV coverage, advertising and technical interest.
Formula 1 is the most known, but it doesn't mean it's the most interesting under the technical point of view.
Then, you've said "Go outside and ask to 10 common people in a row if they like more f1 or wec. I am sure that they will answer "what is wec?". Is hard for wec give the same brand exposure of f1, when most of people don't even know what is it."
That's the problem. Sunday motorsport lovers follow Formula 1, but a few part of them follow (or know something) about the whole motorsport panorama.
On the contrary, endurance enthusiasts appreciate the whole motorsport world.
To sell its cars, Porsche doesn't need Le Mans, Formula 1 or GT. The brand is so strong, they've nothing to show. And the same is for Ferrari.
Both those manufacturers are the most known all around the world, and choice about motorsport are inspirated by their story.
Ferrari has always raced in Formula 1, and is identified with F1.
Porsche has won everything in Endurance and Le Mans, and is identified with this.
But this doesn't mean Ferrari will not back in Le Mans, or Porsche in Formula 1, in a future.
Now I don't think it will happen in a short time, but not because of the lack of interest to do this.
Don't forget Porsche was considering Formula 1, but then confirmed Le Mans because Le Mans is a the base of Porsche history. That's why Ferrari is in Formula 1. But you can be sure both of them follow other classes.

[Maelochs]

“Don't forget Porsche was considering Formula 1, but then confirmed Le Mans because Le Mans is a the base of Porsche history. That's why Ferrari is in Formula 1."

I don’t entirely agree here.

I’d say that Porsche, looking over return-on-investment, decided F1 was not as good a deal because the chances for failure were higher than in endurance racing. The fact that Porsche has more Le Mans wins than any other factory probably isn’t an issue … isn’t Ferrari second and Audi third? I think the decision hinged more on what kind of publicity the company could hope to gain.

In F1 there is a huge chance they could blow though a huge budget and be mid-pack at best (look at Ferrari recently—only Fernando Alonso has kept them name from being disgraced.) On the other hand, the Mrque could get great mileage out of a Le Mans appearance even if they didn’t win—yes, because of their heritage, but to profit from the history, not to continue that history.

Further, with only a few serious competitors, possibly only two, Porsche would have much better odds of at least podium finishes in its first season, as opposed to F1, where things are pretty much hit or miss.

Porsche AG’s board of directors, as would the BoD in any major corporation, looks at the numbers, and the numbers looked better for a Le Mans entry—less money invested and more promo appeal in return. IMO, of course.

As for Ferrari—they had two decades of success in sports car racing as a factory and have always had success with customer cars. The fact that they have always been in F1 doesn’t preclude reclaiming the company’s Le Mans heritage—but the cost of running two top-tier global racing programs probably does. Again, IMO.

As for fans odf either series knowing much about the technical details ... I doubt most Porsche or Ferrari buyers know all that much about them either, or are even race fans. Porsche and Ferrari buyers buy prestige, buy a name, buy an image.

I knew a businesswoman who, when she got successful, bought herself a Boxster. She didn't care from racing---but she knew that Porsches were cool and exotic and cheaper than Ferraris, and the car fit her young, blonde, and beautiful image so she bought it. I doubt she knew the number of camshafts or what a cam was---probably didn't know the displacement. She didn't care---she drove a Porsche.

[Mal]

Whilst F1 has the greatest number of viewers, 99% of cannot or never will be able to buy one .... but they do want one and they do buy the T shirts and hats etc all of which makes the brand one of the most desirable and valuable in the world. This is why Ferrari has been able to re-position its products to much higher price point over the last 10 years or so.

Just look at the relative cost of a '90's 911 to a 355 and a current 911 to a 458

[avvelenamento]

“Don't forget Porsche was considering Formula 1, but then confirmed Le Mans because Le Mans is a the base of Porsche history. That's why Ferrari is in Formula 1."

Ferrari has an enviable le mans palmares too, and I agree with maelochs. Porsche backed by VW group, was considering the idea to step inside f1, but watching bmw, toyota and honda fails they changed their mind, the risk of a failure was too high. Entering in WEC was the logical alternative to accomplish their marketing targets. And agree also on the prestige brand matter. Me too know people that bought a porsche boxster because being not enough rich to buy a 911, prefered to buy a boxster and not another car of the same price range, just because is a porsche. Dario911 is wrong when he says that f1 isn't interesting under a technical point of view, otherwise can't be explained why f1 technologies are some time later transplanted in sportscars. However I need you all to remember we are speculating about the nothingness.

[Gingers4Justice]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Dario911 is wrong when he says that f1 isn't interesting under a technical point of view, otherwise can't be explained why f1 technologies are some time later transplanted in sportscars. However I need you all to remember we are speculating about the nothingness.

I presume you mean some of the aero concepts? Aero is only relevant to gaining a few tenths on the track, and little else. The technologies in LMP1 have long been more diverse than the F1 grid. Of course there has been cross-overs and they have learned from each other, but Le Mans has a more open rule book. The very fact that diesels win the race outright still blows the minds of my friends with a casual interest in motor racing.

[Gingers4Justice]

We're going down a bit of a blind alley. F1 is more about just saying the words of the brand as much as anything. Vettel wins on the Sunday, and then I inexplicably find a six pack of Red Bull in my shopping bag on the Monday.

WEC is about "proving" the manufacturer's pedigree, I'd say. It's impressive that Audi can build a diesel and beat 55 other cars over 24 hours. It's impressive that Toyota can build a hybrid that isn't a Prius that can win races. Etc etc.

Porsche's strength in its brand is its pedigree built on a rich history, as well as recognition of their engineering prowess. With Audi fast closing in on their Le Mans victory tally, they would have been bonkers to enter F1 instead. They need the WEC. They don't need F1.

Ferrari is the opposite. Ferrari is Formula One to many. That sells the key rings and the 8 year old's bed sheets. But you know, they do want their cars to be taken seriously, and while the GT programme does that to some extent, can they really sit back while Porsche takes on the WEC?

I'm going to answer my own rhetorical question. And shoot the question down. Of course they can. This is Ferrari.

[avvelenamento]

You understimante the aero importance in modern lmp1. How can you explain that 2013 lmp1 with 550- less than 600hp are able to run faster than 2007 and 2009 lmp1 powered by not less than 700hp? At le mans, in 2011 r18 marked 3.25, in 2012 marked 3.23, this year 3.22 and realisticly 3.21 was possible. Modern lmp1 use better tyres but aero updates are important too to make the car faster, if we consider also that 2012 r18 was less powerfull than 2011 and gained 2 seconds. Honda transplanted a lot of f1 technology in the arx-02a, making it impossible to use by private teams without honda assistance. This year appeared blowing exhausts on the r18 and the ts030 is rumored to use f1 derivated technology.

"Vettel wins on the Sunday, and then I inexplicably find a six pack of Red Bull in my shopping bag on the Monday."

This is not brand exposure or advertising, this is brainwashing that reminds me an episode of futurama, where commercials are shown inside dreams.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by avvelenamento

Porsche backed by VW group

From what I understand , Porsche owns the controlling interest of VAG .