[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Adam43]

Ooo, LMDh. Interesting not really DTM to my mind, but I remember the shorter Group C races back in the day.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html

"The GT3 proposal would see all-Pro grids with single drivers per car and retention of the Sprint race format currently seen in DTM. The cars would be performance balanced at a higher level than at present in order to match the lap times with DTM having their own Balance of Performance formula."


so... without even considering power, they expect that a 1300kg road derivated racecar with a totally uncomparable aero should match DTM laptimes?

[TF110]

Originally Posted by canaglia

"The GT3 proposal would see all-Pro grids with single drivers per car and retention of the Sprint race format currently seen in DTM. The cars would be performance balanced at a higher level than at present in order to match the lap times with DTM having their own Balance of Performance formula."


so... without even considering power, they expect that a 1300kg road derivated racecar with a totally uncomparable aero should match DTM laptimes?

I thought the same thing. Even with a drop in weight, they would need much much better tires. Super GT type tires and a bigger wing+splitter.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by TF110

I thought the same thing. Even with a drop in weight, they would need much much better tires. Super GT type tires and a bigger wing+splitter.

there a lot of issues in every aspect...


1. power, the least issue. GT3 engines are basically road engines, throw away restrictors and mandatory turbo pressures and 600hp are quite reachable. Surely would be required a 120L fuel tank for the race and a better cooling system but being dtm a sprint format, there will not be many reliability issues about this. Gearbox should be fine too.



2. aero and chassis. The biggest issue. Basically all gt3 cars stock and unballasted are >1200kg, it's really unlikely drop some other mass from them since chassis need to be the same of road cars and all other features are already reduced to the essentials. The only way to save some mass would be drop off all electric stuff that manages ABS, TCS etc...
but no way will be possible to make them 1070kg heavy (DTM reg. min. weight). Considering also that 1070kg is driver included... basically a dtm car weight is <1000kg.
Aero, well... basically no match. You can give bigger splitter/rear wing and a GTE-like diffuser but a GT car will never develope the same downforce and cornering speed of a dtm.

3. maybe the only positive side of the matter.... I'm quite sure gtopen/IMSA michelin are way way better than dtm hankook compound that are made just to force driver to change tyres due show necessities (like pirelli in f1).



so making a quick comparison
2019 DTM hockeneim fastest pole: 1.28.9
2019 gtopen hockeneim fastest pole: 1.36.7

considering that gtopen gt3 use michelin and are usually a bit lighter than SRO/FIA bop, well these GT3+ need to improve of just 8 seconds at hockeneim as said... good luck.


Forgot a little detail... all these updates required will increase production and racing costs... so... live and let (dtm) die.

[MagVanisher]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

DTM Considering Uprated GT3s Or LMDh In Survival Plans

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...val-plans.html

I heard that story as well but I wish DTM would run GT3 and LMDh cars.

Still, good luck to their survival plan and if it succeed, let's hope that they won't shove those regulations to Super GT much like last time.

[hondafan37]

Originally Posted by Napolis

488GTE 900K$++
004C GT3 @600HP with MUCH lower running/spare cost 600K$
"DSC understands that the base cost of a new GT3 Aston Martin Vantage is c.£425k GBP, that translates to c.£550k GBP for a car fully equipped for competition.
Whilst the cost of the GTE spec car is firmly “price on application”, the reality is that the cost is likely to be around 50% more – say £750k GBP."

DSC delves into the costs involved in GT3
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...ng-part-1.html

[joeb]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

DSC delves into the costs involved in GT3
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...ng-part-1.html

That was extremely informative and shows just how complicated the process is. I wonder how team managers figure out all this stuff ahead of time to try and attract a gentleman driver. I guess experience helps, but so many moving pieces....

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

DSC delves into the costs involved in GT3
http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/0...ng-part-1.html

This is why we work so hard to price our spares, our rebuild costs reasonably and our running costs low.

[Mal]

Just spotted this snippet on Autosport



https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/15...o-more-support


"But sources insist that Coletta is not particularly interested in the F1 role right now, and is more committed than ever to building up a project that will bring Ferrari back to the top at Le Mans."

[S griffin]

The plot thickens. Already we have seen rumours of Ferrari to Indy, now are they looking into Hypercar

[Mal]

Originally Posted by S griffin

The plot thickens. Already we have seen rumours of Ferrari to Indy, now are they looking into Hypercar

The rumours have been around for a while and often they are white elephants

However for the first time in a while it makes commercial sense for Ferrari - if anyone can sell cars to a customer programme it is Ferrari as the cars will be all collectors items.

Hence the only thing that makes sense is Hypercar and not LMDh as otherwise it wont be a 'Ferrari'

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by Mal

The rumours have been around for a while and often they are white elephants



However for the first time in a while it makes commercial sense for Ferrari - if anyone can sell cars to a customer programme it is Ferrari as the cars will be all collectors items.



Hence the only thing that makes sense is Hypercar and not LMDh as otherwise it wont be a 'Ferrari'

That's been their hold up. They want to be able to build an LMP2 to one of the chosen cars specs to give it a Ferrari chassis number. Key to their sales plan. Think it's a non starter though. Build your own or sell with the Oreca/Ligier/Dallara chassis plate

[Mal]

Originally Posted by broadrun96

That's been their hold up. They want to be able to build an LMP2 to one of the chosen cars specs to give it a Ferrari chassis number. Key to their sales plan. Think it's a non starter though. Build your own or sell with the Oreca/Ligier/Dallara chassis plate

Thats why it is Hypercar that is the only route that makes sense for them.

[Speed-King]

I see one big problem with ditching LMP2 for LMP3 and that is that a big part of the appeal of LMDH are the fixed prices for the chassis from the approved LMP2 builders. Those guys can, however, only make a profit through economies of scale. Without the LMP2 market, chassis for LMDH will either cost more or be significantly less well engineered.

In other words - and yes, that's a perversion in itself - privateer P2 teams are currently subsidizing the cheap chassis for the manufacturers in DPi.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I see one big problem with ditching LMP2 for LMP3 and that is that a big part of the appeal of LMDH are the fixed prices for the chassis from the approved LMP2 builders. Those guys can, however, only make a profit through economies of scale. Without the LMP2 market, chassis for LMDH will either cost more or be significantly less well engineered.

In other words - and yes, that's a perversion in itself - privateer P2 teams are currently subsidizing the cheap chassis for the manufacturers in DPi.

That's a fair point about the economics. I don't really know how the next set of chassis regs will be different, but I'd have to imagine the current P2 chassis are going to be very similar to what is planned for the future lmp class. Was there a dimension difference that I'm recalling? slightly wider maybe? or was that for hypercar?

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by joeb

That's a fair point about the economics. I don't really know how the next set of chassis regs will be different, but I'd have to imagine the current P2 chassis are going to be very similar to what is planned for the future lmp class. Was there a dimension difference that I'm recalling? slightly wider maybe? or was that for hypercar?

I could imagine hybrid integration being a bit of a problem with keeping essentially the current chassis, as it probably has a considerable effect on packaging, especially with heavy components such as batteries.

[joeb]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

I could imagine hybrid integration being a bit of a problem with keeping essentially the current chassis, as it probably has a considerable effect on packaging, especially with heavy components such as batteries.

Another good point.

I went to look for any chassis dimensions and couldn't find them in the releases about the lmdh rules. They all just mentioned that the lmp2 tub makers would deliver a complete "spine" or to put it another way, "a complete car without the bodywork, engine, or hybrid." I was not sure if this package includes suspension components as well.

[Mike E]

You would think there will be some freedom around suspension as there is in DPi to account for different overall weight and weight distribution of different engines and ancillaries.

[Deleted]

(edit - I misread the date of the publication so this is old news, but anyway)

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...upgradability/

“When the rules were set for the current P2 regulations it was clear for us that only the two best chassis would stay in business. We knew we had to perform. I think we need to discuss together and define what we want for the future.”

Doesn't this contradict the nonsense comments put out by Hughes de Chaunac 5 years ago, when he was arguing about the four chassis constructor limit being to the financial benefit of everybody involved. How is only two chassis manufacturers _staying in the business_ the best solution (even if you only look at those 4 and no-one else)

[chernaudi]

Anyone think that Hypercar might have a future if Peugeot go for it? It's seemignly a rumor that Peugeot are favoring that over the DPI-based regs.

[broadrun96]

I think they really want to sell their battery system on the public and don't think a sticker on a small spec unit will suffice for that. I wonder what that will do to the class, but Toyota is also in development mode so don't they'd complain much.

It would likely help because well French and ACO goals but would they stay longer than Toyota, Kolles or SCG?

[Graham Goodwin]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Anyone think that Hypercar might have a future if Peugeot go for it? It's seemignly a rumor that Peugeot are favoring that over the DPI-based regs.

Not a rumour - have been talking and writing about it for months - the latest DSC piece explains why!

[TF110]

Rumor I saw from Autohebdo iirc said that Alpine is coming to hypercar after next year's lmp1 and an announcement is slated for LM weekend. Secondary to the Peugeot announcement.

[Mike E]

Pascal Vasselon has some opinions on grandfathered LMP1.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ore-it-starts/

[CTD]

Originally Posted by Mike E

Pascal Vasselon has some opinions on grandfathered LMP1.

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...ore-it-starts/

To be quite fair, we know that FIA/ACO have done that in the past with the Group C cars and the LMP900s, so it is not unrealistic it will happen again (and that the grandfathered car wins)