[Team] Ferrari: in F1

[chunterer]

Interesting that Rory Byrne will have a significant role to play in the design of the 22' car...

[GT6]

Not sure how bringing back a man who, is lets just say no a young man, is going to help them move forward.

[E.B]

Originally Posted by GT6

Not sure how bringing back a man who, is lets just say no a young man, is going to help them move forward.

I thought he had always been retained by Ferrari in a consultancy role working for about a third of the year with them, and still keeps an office there, although his involvement in the racing side has no doubt reduced. I believe he lives half of the year in Italy and the rest in Thailand. (He has a Thai wife).
I remember reading he has been involved on various projects with them but always kept a hand in with the F1 side in an overseer/advisory type of role.

I guess he is after that elusive 100th win for cars he designed. (currently at 99).

Hopefully a return to a more hands on approach will reap rewards. Im not a tifosi or huge fan of Ferrari but respect the need for them to be up there if only to take away from the current Merc monotony.

[S griffin]

I too knew he had a consultancy role, but didn't know how much influence he had. I don't think he has that much influence anymore. I don't think he feels the need to come back to F1 really. He's probably got enough to keep him occupied.

That said, I think Ferrari using him for advice is not the worst thing they could do at this current time. I feel Ferrari will get back up there eventually, so any little help they can get from him will help. Ferrari may divide opinion, but it's a bit embarrassing the current predicament they are in. Improvements must be made in 2021

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by S griffin

I too knew he had a consultancy role, but didn't know how much influence he had. I don't think he has that much influence anymore. I don't think he feels the need to come back to F1 really. He's probably got enough to keep him occupied.

That said, I think Ferrari using him for advice is not the worst thing they could do at this current time. I feel Ferrari will get back up there eventually, so any little help they can get from him will help. Ferrari may divide opinion, but it's a bit embarrassing the current predicament they are in. Improvements must be made in 2021

That all kind of conflicts with this....

Originally Posted by chunterer

Interesting that Rory Byrne will have a significant role to play in the design of the 22' car...

[chillibowl]

this is sort of what i was saying earlier about a lack of legacy support at Ferrari (although when i said that i did not realize Byrne was involved as a consultant still).

for me i think it is great.

having someone with historical knowledge and institutional memory to offer solutions to any potential limitation of modern design philosophy. im sure there are many examples of this, but Newey reintroducing pull rod suspension on the RBs circa 2010 as a response to changing regulations was a case of an old idea that fell out of favour in F1 but its reintroduction resulted in an advantage for RB.

i see this with a lot of other sports also either in the form of older executives, front office personnel, and former players all supporting the younger team. also in business, a successful company will likely have a very experienced board...not to handle the day to day but to help plot the overall course of the ship.

with Williams i imagine Patrick Head coming in was helpful. to what extent i cannot say but Merc (Lauda) and RB (Marko) seem to think these sorts of arraignments work and F1 teams love to copy each other!

[bjohnsonsmith]

In an interview with Gazzetta dello Sport, Ferrari chairman John Elkann says he does not expect Ferrari to be winning again until 2022.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...paign=widget-1

[GT6]

Originally Posted by bjohnsonsmith

In an interview with Gazzetta dello Sport, Ferrari chairman John Elkann says he does not expect Ferrari to be winning again until 2022.

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/f...paign=widget-1

Suspect he will be not be long in that job.

[chillibowl]

from the article:

"This year we are not competitive thanks to project errors. We have had a number of structural weaknesses that have existed for some time in aerodynamics and in the dynamics of the vehicle. We have also lost out in engine power.

yikes...that sounds like they have a lot of problems!

suggests that the chassis freeze, which prevents teams making major changes to their cars over the next two years, is a major factor in why it cannot recover faster.

but maybe not though...

a chassis freeze effects all teams so all things being equal a team like Merc will have a harder time extending their advantage over Ferrari as they also cannot develop while Ferrari sorts out it's issues.

and now that Ferrari have time to sort out these structural problems instead of having to mitigate them for the 2021 chassis, the freeze could be an opportunity?

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

but maybe not though...

a chassis freeze effects all teams so all things being equal a team like Merc will have a harder time extending their advantage over Ferrari as they also cannot develop while Ferrari sorts out it's issues.

and now that Ferrari have time to sort out these structural problems instead of having to mitigate them for the 2021 chassis, the freeze could be an opportunity?

You have losts me somewhere in your logic. Maybe I am missing something, but how does any of this work in Ferrari's favor? If there is a development freeze and Mercedes is dominating (with limited ability for competition to develop forward to challenge them), Mercedes can focus on the future from a position of strength. They have a well understood solution, the best driver and a well run organization.

Ferrari can't develop out of their current problems and can only focus on the future as well, but from a position of weakness. They have a car and power unit that doesn't perform, there is no doubt internal drama and finger pointing. How can we expect that foundation to generate success in 2022? Its possible, but will be an uphill climb.

Richard

[wnut]

has all the hallmarks of another Ferrari Inquisition, followed by hysterical blame laying and mass sackings, leading to at least another five years in the doldrums.

Seb must have read the writing on the wall.

If RBR and Honda don't come through we can just write Lewis' name on the next couple of championships, oh the joy.

[Richard C]

This is not a particularly "Ferrari" comment, but I am becoming more and more convinced that pushing the new regulations off to 2022 was a bad idea. Particularly when combining that with a development freeze. This puts us right back into the period of teams who don't have enough tokens to fix their problems, so they have to limp along. Ferrari is the new Honda.

Richard

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

You have losts me somewhere in your logic. Maybe I am missing something, but how does any of this work in Ferrari's favor? If there is a development freeze and Mercedes is dominating (with limited ability for competition to develop forward to challenge them), Mercedes can focus on the future from a position of strength. They have a well understood solution, the best driver and a well run organization.

Ferrari can't develop out of their current problems and can only focus on the future as well, but from a position of weakness. They have a car and power unit that doesn't perform, there is no doubt internal drama and finger pointing. How can we expect that foundation to generate success in 2022? Its possible, but will be an uphill climb.

Richard

I think chilli’s point is that it relatively better for Ferrari if they only have one thing to concentrate on! Or rather you takeaway Merc’s advantage of being able to do more than one thing at once!

Whatever, Ferrari should treat it at an opportunity.

You are probably right though, Merc will have an advantage anyway. Less that they are better at the moment, more that they are just better.

[wnut]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

This is not a particularly "Ferrari" comment, but I am becoming more and more convinced that pushing the new regulations off to 2022 was a bad idea. Particularly when combining that with a development freeze. This puts us right back into the period of teams who don't have enough tokens to fix their problems, so they have to limp along. Ferrari is the new Honda.

Richard

Making the comment specific to Ferrari, why would they agree to a development freeze when they are clearly well behind the Mercedes?
Was this agreed to before the engine irregularities were uncovered and they thought they were competitive?
Seems that the freeze agreement was after their engine legality troubles though.

Hate any freeze on development, it is just the antithesis of what F1 should be.

[Adam43]

I agree.

At this point in time I’m OK with it, but I hope it doesn’t become the norm.

[S griffin]

It’s only a temporary solution. Maybe they can come it with something similar in the future if and when they need to cut costs. It might work or it might not, we’ll have to see how much has been sustained come the end of 2021, hopefully we will still have enough for the teams to keep going. But then again I would be surprised if this engine freeze hasn’t done it’s job

[Aysedasi]

Originally Posted by wnut

Seb must have read the writing on the wall.

I don't think they allowed him close enough to read it....

[GT6]

Originally Posted by Aysedasi

I don't think they allowed him close enough to read it....

Well he had a lucky escape, not sure the red cars will be a happy place to be next year either,

[Aysedasi]

That may well be the case Simon, but a lucky escape to - nowhere.....

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by wnut

Making the comment specific to Ferrari, why would they agree to a development freeze when they are clearly well behind the Mercedes?
Was this agreed to before the engine irregularities were uncovered and they thought they were competitive?
Seems that the freeze agreement was after their engine legality troubles though.

Hate any freeze on development, it is just the antithesis of what F1 should be.

Why would Ferrari agree to the freeze? While there might be a lot of potential reasons, I think it is due to what was going on in the world and in particularly Italy at the time the decision was made. I think the decision was made mid-March. Look at Covid19 data from that time period.

Italy had just days earlier went into total lockdown. Their peak was still weeks away (which they didn't know). It may be more clear now, but I suspect Ferrari's perspective is that any potential for 2020 development let alone 2021 development work was lost or seriously curtailed. However as Italy looked worse than just about everyone else other than China, other teams could potentially continue to do development work.

For Ferrari it may have been less about "giving up development time" (as it was gone for them from their perspective) than it was to deny that time for others.

Hopefully they can turn things around for 2022. And while they are likely focused on 2022, I think it's unrealistic to think they are not trying to address issues in the 2020/21 platform.

Richard

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

You have losts me somewhere in your logic...

Originally Posted by Adam43

I think chilli’s point is that it relatively better for Ferrari if they only have one thing to concentrate on! Or rather you takeaway Merc’s advantage of being able to do more than one thing at once!

Whatever, Ferrari should treat it at an opportunity.

You are probably right though, Merc will have an advantage anyway. Less that they are better at the moment, more that they are just better.

sorry for the delayed response and looking back, for a poorly thought out post.

my underlying premise was much as Adam suggested but clearly written with little thought put into it so will try to expand after the fact.

basically i was just thinking along the lines of them having more time to develop, restructure, new hires etc and, if all goes well, approach 2022 from a stronger position. i believe there is no development freeze for the 2022 chassis and also i am assuming, could be wrong, that until the new concorde agreement is signed they are free to spend as they see fit until then?

if so, then there may be an inherent advantage in shifting to 2022 early.

while it still feels like the start of the season, it is typically around now/summer break where a team that has a poor chassis starts looking to shift development to the following season but in this case the next chassis season is 2022. indeed F1 chassis tend to be more evolutions rather than revolutions, but with new regs coming maybe Ferrari can find a way to take the lead for the next development cycle.

admittedly though, i was just thinking about the chassis side and not the engine.

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Hopefully they can turn things around for 2022. And while they are likely focused on 2022, I think it's unrealistic to think they are not trying to address issues in the 2020/21 platform.

a fair point. dont think i can dance around that one!

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Why would Ferrari agree to the freeze? While there might be a lot of potential reasons, I think it is due to what was going on in the world and in particularly Italy at the time the decision was made. I think the decision was made mid-March. Look at Covid19 data from that time period.

Italy had just days earlier went into total lockdown. Their peak was still weeks away (which they didn't know). It may be more clear now, but I suspect Ferrari's perspective is that any potential for 2020 development let alone 2021 development work was lost or seriously curtailed. However as Italy looked worse than just about everyone else other than China, other teams could potentially continue to do development work.

For Ferrari it may have been less about "giving up development time" (as it was gone for them from their perspective) than it was to deny that time for others.

Hopefully they can turn things around for 2022. And while they are likely focused on 2022, I think it's unrealistic to think they are not trying to address issues in the 2020/21 platform.

Richard

So effectively, they got caught out by Covid-19. Given the time frame that would make sense.

[wnut]

Thank you Richard, your post has the ring of truth to it.

Basically overreacted to a bad situation they found themselves in, panicked, and shot themselves in the foot, much like their pit strategies.

[GT6]

And once panic sets n everything seems to go wrong, in order to steady the ship Ferrari need a period of stability and it appears they are not going to have that

[wolfhound]

The other longer term issue Ferrari has is that the cost cap will hit them harder than most when they most need to spend their way out of trouble. They will have to learn how to spend effectively to get the best bang for their buck.