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Old 31 Jul 2020, 10:18 (Ref:3991818)   #76
RS67
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Originally Posted by Mike Harte View Post
Having been to Donington, Croft and, most recently, Oulton, I'm afraid to say that this is just not the case. At all three circuits, my sons and family and I have been shoulder to shoulder with other spectators when spectating.

In addition, when going to the toilets or refreshment vans, you have to almost fight to make your way through the crowds.

Having said the above, I am sure that there may well be spots around the circuits that are just not as popular and where there might be space to socially distance yourself from others.
I have been to Donington, Brands Hatch (Indy and GP), Thruxton, Silverstone, Rockingham, Snetterton, for BTCC meetings, Rockingham is the only place where I have been forced into being shoulder to shoulder with other spectators, but that's because you only have a choice of a grandstand seat or stand on top of the garages. Every other track has plenty of room other than grandstands, or if you are at Brands Hatch at you feel the need to watch from Paddock Hill bend, I have never yet had to settle on a limited viewing area to avoid standing shoulder to shoulder. But even people on Paddock Hill bend aren't as tightly packed as Golf spectators.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 11:19 (Ref:3991829)   #77
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My point is that, until this week, no one has said to MSV, they can not have spectators at a BTCC meeting like they have at other meetings already this month because it is an elite sport. What makes it an elite sport? According to many definitions that I can find on google, they all come up with just one definition that would apply to motorsport, that is the highest level of international or national competition. So what sets BTCC apart from British GT in that respect. BTCC drivers compete in British GT and British GT drivers compete in BTCC, so it isn't the "athletes" that give it that status. Teams compete in both championships, so it isn't the teams, so that just leaves the popularity of the sport to spectators.
There is not a single definition of Elite sport that says they would be a higher risk of spreading the virus. The only defining factor is the size of spectators the sport attracts and the distances people travel to see the sport.
Being an "Elite" sport has FA to do with it
.
Despite my best intentions, I still couldn't stop myself being drawn back into this!
I think you've answered your own question here. The competitors are not a problem who are going to kept in their own bubble in the paddock and can be trusted to behave themselves. It is the huge number of spectators that the series attracts who cannot be kept (or some of them trusted to keep) their distance from each other who are then going to be driving home to wherever they have come from, with the possibility of having taken the virus with them to Donington, or with the reverse possibility of taking it back home with them, all done without any tracing where they are from. All team members have had to complete and submit a form to TOCA with their full name, home address, contact email and mobile telephone numbers, and I would expect that any officials & marshals attending will have done something similar. I suspect that this is for a possible track & trace mechanism should any problems be found after the event. This could not be done with all of the random spectators attending as there would be no telling where they were and who they had been standing close to.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 11:20 (Ref:3991830)   #78
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Existing spectator sport pilots have just been scrapped.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 13:57 (Ref:3991868)   #79
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
"until this week, no one has said to MSV, they can not have spectators at a BTCC meeting" The Govt. said you can't have spectators at an Elite sport on 13 May - when did MSV first ask if BTCC is Elite?

"What makes it an elite sport?" - A decision by DCMS

"According to many definitions that I can find on google" - Google doesn't define Elite Sport in relation to UK COVID restrictions, DCMS does.


"So what sets BTCC apart from British GT in that respect." - BTCC is the highest level of racing in it's category, British GT is not. Although for definite answer, you'd have to ask DCMS

"There is not a single definition of Elite sport that says they would be a higher risk of spreading the virus." - And that has never been claimed. The Government have set the regulation(s) relating to Elite Sport, regardless of risk or crowd size. Some Elite Sports have large crowds in confined spaces, some have small crowds in large outdoor locations.


"The only defining factor is the size of spectators the sport attracts and the distances people travel to see the sport." - The numbers and distance travelled does not come into it.

Google is just the search engine that will provide many different authoritative bodies that can provide an answer to a question. In this case what is an Elite Sport or what is an Elite Athlete.

None of it gives any indication, much like your answers as to why an Elite Sport can't have spectators and differentiate from a sport that doesn't qualify as an Elite Sport.
Glorious Goodwood is currently on TV, Lord March and his team have gone to great lengths to make spectator areas safe for social distancing, yet they are unable to have any, so I suspect they were also hoping that the decision could be changed.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:08 (Ref:3991869)   #80
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Goodwood was a DCMS approved test event, similar to cricket matched at the Oval & Edgbaston and the World Snooker at the Crucible.
In all cases they had worked with local & national authorities, and had extensive safety procedures in place, combined with a very strictly controlled ticket availability, c10% for the cricket events.


There doesn't seem to be any evidence of MSV acting in the same, responsible way.

So, while MSV are not the main factor behind these changes, their actions have made significantly contributed.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:09 (Ref:3991870)   #81
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Originally Posted by RS67 View Post
Glorious Goodwood is currently on TV, Lord March and his team have gone to great lengths to make spectator areas safe for social distancing, yet they are unable to have any, so I suspect they were also hoping that the decision could be changed.
Goodwood was to have been one of the pilot events, which is why they had god to great lengths to make things safe. They are unable to have any spectators because the today's government announcement.

Ultimately does it matter what the exact criteria are for an Elite Sport/Athlete? We could argue the pros and cons for days; that won't change the fact that a judgement has been made and isn't going to change. Can we just except that and move on.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:12 (Ref:3991871)   #82
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Originally Posted by VIVA GT View Post
Despite my best intentions, I still couldn't stop myself being drawn back into this!
I think you've answered your own question here. The competitors are not a problem who are going to kept in their own bubble in the paddock and can be trusted to behave themselves. It is the huge number of spectators that the series attracts who cannot be kept (or some of them trusted to keep) their distance from each other who are then going to be driving home to wherever they have come from, with the possibility of having taken the virus with them to Donington, or with the reverse possibility of taking it back home with them, all done without any tracing where they are from. All team members have had to complete and submit a form to TOCA with their full name, home address, contact email and mobile telephone numbers, and I would expect that any officials & marshals attending will have done something similar. I suspect that this is for a possible track & trace mechanism should any problems be found after the event. This could not be done with all of the random spectators attending as there would be no telling where they were and who they had been standing close to.
Which is exactly what I have been saying, but apparently we are wrong. I am being told it has nothing to do with spectator numbers or where they have come from. Yet the govt website regarding Elite Sport spectators distinctly points towards numbers, the distances and various means of transport used to get to events, the stops they make during their journeys in either direction, if they intend an overnight stay, their sleeping arrangements, eating arrangements whether they could be mixing with locals down the pub etc.

Yet the same people who tell us we are wrong, can only spout the same drivel of because it is an Elite Sport and can't give an answer as to why it separates itself from another championship of the exact same sport.

Having been to British GT, ELMS, BTCC and WRX as well as club and truck racing meetings over the last few years, I would say BTCC meetings has better control over race spectators in previous seasons anyway, let alone what they were intending to do now.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:27 (Ref:3991874)   #83
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Originally Posted by redshoes View Post
Goodwood was to have been one of the pilot events, which is why they had god to great lengths to make things safe. They are unable to have any spectators because the today's government announcement.

Ultimately does it matter what the exact criteria are for an Elite Sport/Athlete? We could argue the pros and cons for days; that won't change the fact that a judgement has been made and isn't going to change. Can we just except that and move on.
So Goodwood are the good guys for having done the exact same thing as MSV.
It still doesn't detract from your link to MSUK's statement that all motorsport in the UK which was starting behind closed doors on 4th July and at no point over the weekends since haven't stopped MSV from allowing spectators trackside, or from selling tickets for a sport that has suddenly recieved a classification that prevents it having spectators whilst other similar sports of a lower ranking can have spectators.
Perhaps MSUK should have stepped in earlier instead of allowing people and businesse to get their hopes up before pulling the rug from beneath their feet at the last minute.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:39 (Ref:3991875)   #84
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So Goodwood are the good guys for having done the exact same thing as MSV.
Goodwood was a government approved pilot event, MSV wasn't. So yes, they were the good guys and no not the same.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 14:54 (Ref:3991884)   #85
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Originally Posted by EastonNeston View Post
Goodwood was a DCMS approved test event, similar to cricket matched at the Oval & Edgbaston and the World Snooker at the Crucible.
In all cases they had worked with local & national authorities, and had extensive safety procedures in place, combined with a very strictly controlled ticket availability, c10% for the cricket events.


There doesn't seem to be any evidence of MSV acting in the same, responsible way.

So, while MSV are not the main factor behind these changes, their actions have made significantly contributed.
No evidence you say.
Yet there press release notifying that spectators will not be allowed quite clearly states they have been working with the local authorities covid control to make sure that the facilities are safe for spectators. All ticket sales had to be pre booked, no on gate sales, that means MSV would have contact details for at least one person from each group of tickets sold so track and trace would be easy. Grandstand seating to be divided into family(friend) groups. Then social distancing between those groups and also between rows. Emails sent to people who had already booked grandstand seats to find out if they still intended to go, so new seating plans could be sorted.
I have seen people stating that ticket sales for Saturday was close to being sold out, that points to MSV having a set capacity they were going to allow.
Confirmation that there would be no trade stands allowed, no access to paddock or pit lane.

Actually holding race meetings where social distancing is already practiced, so they already have evidence of what to do and whatever further improvements may be required.
Where I work we have strict social distancing measures in place, one way systems, if space allows segregated and clearly marked lanes where people can walk in opposite directions, pretty much the same as local shopping centres. One of my workmates is a Brands Hatch season ticket holder, so he has been to each meeting this month and says the measures are pretty much the same at Brands Hatch as we have at work or at shopping centres. As Brands and Donington are both run by MSV, they are highly likely to be using the same measures.
But yes you must be right, there is no evidence that MSV have been making use of the required local authorities to make their facilities safe.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 15:01 (Ref:3991885)   #86
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Goodwood was a government approved pilot event, MSV wasn't. So yes, they were the good guys and no not the same.
Goodwood may have been an intended pilot, but that is an intended pilot for all horse race meetings, not just high profile ones. MSV has been holding race meetings as have other tracks and unless they are told differently, will be doing the same this weekend and so on.
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 15:05 (Ref:3991886)   #87
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Goodwood may have been an intended pilot, but that is an intended pilot for all horse race meetings, not just high profile ones.
No it wasn't - it was intended to be one of a range of pilots for Elite Sport Events, not just horse racing.

'The events have been carefully selected to represent a range of sports and indoor and outdoor spectator environments. [...] The pilot events will provide the opportunity to stress-test the Government’s ‘stage five’ guidance, on the return of fans to elite sports events. [...]Further updates to the stage five guidance may be published to reflect the result of the test events before competition with spectators is permitted.'
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 16:23 (Ref:3991905)   #88
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Okay after 5 pages it's established that nobody is going to be trackside watching. The reasons for that is numerous.

Track action? Who are we expecting big things from? I'm tipping Chris Smiley to outscore both BTC Civics this weekend.
Hmm not sure, Chris is quick but Cook and Chilton are going to be right up there.

It's been so long I really don't know what to expect! Hopefully it's less of a BMW domination this year..!
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 16:26 (Ref:3991908)   #89
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Will be watching it this weekend. But just our luck, it has to clash with the one GP that is being shown live on FTA! If only it was supporting the GP like the old days
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Old 31 Jul 2020, 16:51 (Ref:3991912)   #90
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2nd BTCC race is schedule to finish a few mins prior to the start of the GP so suitable timed to avoid a clash. Better still you could watch the first corner of the F1 then switch back to the Ginetta Jr race.
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