Safety car shambles

[peckstar]

Who was the leader though mr cool. The guy on the track (Garth) or the guys in the pit.(which ever one got out first, turned out to be Jamie)

of course stopped where it was, it was never going to see who was leading

Hopefully they will have a good look at this.

On a side issue, but related Garth comes screaming down the track at 250k Jnr is is coming out of the pits at a much slower speed, in a race Gt would have made the position, but under a safety car Gt would have had to have slammed on the breaks to avoid passing the slower Jnr

[NewsStalker]

Who was the leader though mr cool. The guy on the track (Garth) or the guys in the pit.(which ever one got out first, turned out to be Jamie)

The 'guy on the track (Garth)' was never the leader at any point on this lap - until/unless he had overtaken Whincup he was behind the leader.

Regardless of whether a car is on the track or in pit lane, the leader is STILL the leader until he/she is passed at the control line by another car.

If anyone thought differently then they were watching a completely different race.

[peckstar]

so what you are saying then NS. Is because Jamie had crossed the control line he was the leader, and then because GT happened to be coming along pit straight at full speed he passed Jamie before the Jamie got to the safety car, well then Garth was allowed to keep going and gain a whole lap, even though Jamie is now in 2nd, interesting logic, By no means true, but interesting logic

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

so what you are saying then NS. Is because Jamie had crossed the control line he was the leader, and then because GT happened to be coming along pit straight at full speed he passed Jamie before the Jamie got to the safety car, well then Garth was allowed to keep going and gain a whole lap, even though Jamie is now in 2nd, interesting logic, By no means true, but interesting logic

I always knew you were shocking for twisting peoples words, but your having an overdose lately.

Garth was never going to overtake jamie. Suggest he did (don't see how it is even fathomable since the safety car was at pit exit) the garth would then be the leader, as the pass was on track, just as any other pass happens.

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by peckstar

so you get to cast dispersions on tim over something you havent seen, interesting, no suprises for who really should be considered a Sphincter.

i may not have seen the cause of the safety car, but i did see the scramble to the pits, and the absolute abortion of a safety car deployment. if Schenken has absolute control of the 'safety car', then the guy is a muppet. even if not ordered to do so, any 'safety car' driver, who has the credentials to be driving (not some clown who bought a raffle ticket), would know to have lights flashing, and to be mobile in a visable section of the track - not stationary,without lights, on the blindside of a brow!! common sense really.

Originally Posted by peckstar

But Jamie had already passed the pit exit by the time the safety car was out. He pitted that lap, but because everyone pittedeither at that time or before he was still the leader and the SC had to wait for him (in this case stop in a stupid position) The field resumed in pretty much the same order as they were prior to the incident.

so your saying the whole field pitted during this period?? i'm 2-3 cars pitted a few laps prior to the incident?, there fore they would take there rightful spot at the front of the cue??

[peckstar]

stealthy, see thats not true. Garth could easily have overtaken Jamie, a stall on dropping the car, a dodgy wheel nut, missed the marks and had to back up, any possibility of stuff up could have happened, plus how many litres of fuel was jamie required to take. Rick was also just behind Jamie pitted at the same time. he could haso have got passed. v8s have varibles, errors happened, so i dont need to twist, i just need to be open minded to variables

smokin Joe, there are no arguments with your first point, it was a shambles, i would think everyone agrees, even V8SA, they have said that on there web site.

As for your 2nd point, yes there were a number of cars that had pitted earlier (i think caruso was one) but remember they were a whole pit stop (say around 55 seconds) behind Jamie, plus whatever margin they were behind before they pitted. So the Safety car picked up the correct driver and every one fell back into there correct spot,

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

stealthy, see thats not true. Garth could easily have overtaken Jamie, a stall on dropping the car, a dodgy wheel nut, missed the marks and had to back up, any possibility of stuff up could have happened, plus how many litres of fuel was jamie required to take. Rick was also just behind Jamie pitted at the same time. he could haso have got passed. v8s have varibles, errors happened, so i dont need to twist, i just need to be open minded to variables

And a meteor could have landed right on jamies car.

None of that happened. Were discussing what DID happen. Garth was nowhere near passing him. If garth did pass, then he would be the leader, and thus the car the SC would have to pick up.

Suggest it did get missed, and Garth was waved past, then it would eventually be readdressed like it always has. Moot point really.

[peckstar]

then you need to go back to why i said what i said.

Mr cool said that the guys driving the car needed to know who the leader was, i asked him who the leader was, because we were at a critical time in the race where some of the leaders were in the pits and others were driving flat out on the track, We did not know who the leader was to the pit stops were completed, Yes when Jamie came back onto the track he was the leader, but up to a few seconds before that we did not know. So how could people in a car sitting just over a crest know who the leader was to Jamie came blasting out of the pits.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

then you need to go back to why i said what i said.

Mr cool said that the guys driving the car needed to know who the leader was, i asked him who the leader was, because we were at a critical time in the race where some of the leaders were in the pits and others were driving flat out on the track, We did not know who the leader was to the pit stops were completed, Yes when Jamie came back onto the track he was the leader, but up to a few seconds before that we did not know. So how could people in a car sitting just over a crest know who the leader was to Jamie came blasting out of the pits.

Jamie was the leader. How hard is it to comprehend. Until he is passed, he's the leader..........................

No-one passed him.......

Its the same in every form of motorsport.

[PVDA]

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

You make a valid point and i was in belief of what you said but if you look when the SC pulls away the lights are still off. What on earth are they thinking turning the lights off with cars doing 250km/h?

Even though they are LED's they still pull a fair bit of power so "if" the car stalled perhaps they turned them off so the car would start. If you watch the YouTube replay they get moving and then remember to turn the lights back on.

The two in the car would've been in a mild panic so I'll cut them some slack on the lights and they stop where they are told to.

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

I do agree, you always hear them ask the communicator to change channels, just so Tim can speak to the SC and the TV can hear it.

The car is fitted with a multi channel radio withr the Race Management channels for most of the main support categories that follow the series so they have to change channels as VE$A wouldn't want a Ute Racing, for example, being run on their operational channel (which is fair enough). For other occasional support categories they would default back to the main track Race Control portable radio the passenger is issued with.

Originally Posted by Mr_Cool

May i also say if the 2 knobs in the car weren't aware who the leader is. Why are they driving the SC? One thing you need to know is your leader..

They cant see what's coming behind them easily. I've done a fair bit of SC driving (with no passenger at times) and it's not the easy cushy job people think it is.

Especially when a couple of Formula Holden drivers at Calder didn't see the SC boards & flags until they almost drove under my rear bumper.

[peckstar]

the leader was not know until the Jamie had re entered the track (i am fully aware that Jamie was the driver who did this) but up until that point where he re-entered the track the race for position 1 was up in the air. thus the Safety car did not know who the leader was until Jamie had done this, it had the potential to be a number of drivers

please take it in context of mr cools comment and not some other argument you think we are having

[peckstar]

flash back to this time last year (but at Bahrain) and guess what they stuffed up with the safety then

bahrain

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

i may not have seen the cause of the safety car, but i did see the scramble to the pits, and the absolute abortion of a safety car deployment.

if Schenken has absolute control of the 'safety car', then the guy is a muppet.

Couldn't have put it better myself....

Originally Posted by smokin'joe

even if not ordered to do so, any 'safety car' driver, who has the credentials to be driving (not some clown who bought a raffle ticket), would know to have lights flashing, and to be mobile in a visable section of the track - not stationary,without lights, on the blindside of a brow!! common sense really.

Interestingly, for 2009, VESA have 'appointed' a Safety car driver for ALL V8 events.

Previously, the promoter/circuit would supply an appropriately competent person to pilot it, (usually a race official who both understands the purpose, and has a fair degree of track-craft) partnered with an experienced race official as SC observer.

So, this year (in Victoria at least) Amber Anderson CLICKY has been the appointed VESA Pilot, with circuit/promoter personnel driving it for the support classes.

Now, I have seen Amber race in 944 Porsches, and I will not cast aspersions on her driving ability in a race car.

However, I am a little concerned to see that she continued to just sit stationary on track. Even if you are given a direction to hold, your own sense of self preservation should kick in, and I believe she should have rolled out deeper into T1 to be far more visible to the pack, as she was effectively in an almost blind spot as the field came over the brow of the hill, and under the bridge.



To quantify this a little, a number of years back I was driving the Safety Car (a neat little Proton...) at Winton for an AMRS round, and was deployed to pick up the leaders in a Touring Car Challenge Race (recycled V8 Supercars)

I was rolling along at 40 KPH, sitting mid track, lights flashing, rolling into T1 (as directed by the Clerk of Course)
I was actually out on the front straight before the leaders had turned T 12, and was at about the 250m breaking marker prior to T 1 watching the field in my mirrors.
The cars in P 1 & P 2 come past me, one each side at close to 200 K's, as they raced for position as they entered the T 1 braking area. (Talk about a red mist...)

After I swallowed my gonads back down, I collected the rest of the field, (who graciously chose to slow, and fall into line as directed by flags and boards, for about 4 flagpoints prior) and led them for a couple of laps as the track was cleared & made safe.

The two drivers were appropriately punished, and the world still continues to turn to this very day.
Whilst my situation was a bit different, it shows that things can & do go wrong with the Safety Car.

Originally Posted by PVDA

Was the Safety Car stalled by any chance??

If you watch the replay of the incident on YouTube you see the lights turn off all of a sudden.

My 10c worth, there are two things that should never be done by a Safety Car;
1. It should never drive straight out into the middle of the race track (Pau, WTCC).
2. It should never ever come to a complete stop, slow it down to a crawl by all means, but never stop the thing on the track.

I also believe the SC should be under the direct control of the tracks Race Control radio network and not on the VE$A channel as it is at present.

Paul, I have just re-watched that YouTube clip for about the 7th time, and I will make a call that I wish I could substantiate.

No I haven’t seen the seven coverage & haven’t heard the VESA radio, but remember don't rely on seeing images on a coverage, and thinking the radio audio matches the moment. (Oh to have been a fly on the wall in Race Control)


I dont think they stalled, I think that they might have been told to turn to lights off, in a moment of panic.


I'll type this slowly for some of you....

I think Tim might have realised at the last minute that he had forgotten to move the Safety Car off, and panicked & told them to turn the lights off (so the leader didn’t have to fall in behind it)

When the cars all slowed, in realising the stuff-up, Tim then told the Safety Car to 'light-up' and move off, hoping to avert a rapidly unfolding catastrophe.

Just an educated guess, but whatever happened, there needs to be a transparent inquiry into this incident, with corrective actions put in place to ensure it never happens again.

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by peckstar

flash back to this time last year (but at Bahrain) and guess what they stuffed up with the safety then

bahrain

That was exactly my point. The leader had gone past, so they readdress it to get to the leaders......The problem with that was it was deployed too late, nothing to do with who the leader was.

And i don't care what discussion your having with someone else. I'm talking about this issue. The leader was Jamie, until another car had passed him, he was still always going to be the leader. If, and only if, garth had managed to get past, and was waved past, the same thing would have happened as bahrain, they would have sent the field past you get back to the leader. No biggie there, the problem which this thread is discussing is the fact it was stopped, on the fastest point of the circuit, when it should have been moving (note the Bahrain SC never stopped moving)

[peckstar]

clearly we are talking about unrelated issues then, so i will stop discussing it

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

Paul, I have just re-watched that YouTube clip for about the 7th time, and I will make a call that I wish I could substantiate.

No I haven’t seen the seven coverage & haven’t heard the VESA radio, but remember don't rely on seeing images on a coverage, and thinking the radio audio matches the moment. (Oh to have been a fly on the wall in Race Control)


I dont think they stalled, I think that they might have been told to turn to lights off, in a moment of panic.


I'll type this slowly for some of you....

I think Tim might have realised at the last minute that he had forgotten to move the Safety Car off, and panicked & told them to turn the lights off (so the leader didn’t have to fall in behind it)

When the cars all slowed, in realising the stuff-up, Tim then told the Safety Car to 'light-up' and move off, hoping to avert a rapidly unfolding catastrophe.

Just an educated guess, but whatever happened, there needs to be a transparent inquiry into this incident, with corrective actions put in place to ensure it never happens again.

That was basically my thought. The lights were turned off so the field could pass.

Also not sure what trans the audi has, but if its the trans i'm thinking, it can't be stalled (stalled up, yes, but not stalled)

[bludvl_x19]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

That was basically my thought. The lights were turned off so the field could pass.

Also not sure what trans the audi has, but if its the trans i'm thinking, it can't be stalled (stalled up, yes, but not stalled)

You dont think that its possible to stall an auto? It is, and it could have happened for any number of reasons tbh.


Oh, and welcome back UC, we have missed you

FWIW, I think that Schenken cocked up, and its partly because of the power that he 'believes' he has over the CoC that it happened.

[Silver 3]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

FWIW, I think that Schenken cocked up, and its partly because of the power that he 'believes' he has over the CoC that it happened.

That says it all-he forgot to activate the SC-- something else probably confused the issue and distracted at the crucial moments.
The SC driver-no matter who or what experience you have-- does not make unillateral decisions-it would probably be their last drive if they did and got it wrong ! Even if they got it right no credit would be given.
Sometimes those who have nothing to do but spectate can actually see more than those responsible to make the decisions-this was probably one of those cases.
Adding one more observation-even if you were in the tower and could see a mistake unfolding--do any of you think that those making the calls would listen to anyone else present-regardless of that persons experience?

[STEALTHY]

Originally Posted by bludvl_x19

You dont think that its possible to stall an auto? It is, and it could have happened for any number of reasons tbh.

It can cut out, yes. But can't stall like a manual. Theres no clutch pedal.........

If an auto cuts out, theres an electrical or mechanical fault, a manual can be stalled with driver error (aswell as the others)

[smokin'joe]

Originally Posted by Uncle Cranker

Couldn't have put it better myself....



Interestingly, for 2009, VESA have 'appointed' a Safety car driver for ALL V8 events.

Previously, the promoter/circuit would supply an appropriately competent person to pilot it, (usually a race official who both understands the purpose, and has a fair degree of track-craft) partnered with an experienced race official as SC observer.

So, this year (in Victoria at least) Amber Anderson CLICKY has been the appointed VESA Pilot, with circuit/promoter personnel driving it for the support classes.

Now, I have seen Amber race in 944 Porsches, and I will not cast aspersions on her driving ability in a race car.

so, she can quantify her position in the 'safety car' as she has relvevant driver ability.......... what about the bit where she should be in an official capacity, with instilled knowledge, that she would have a certain amount of clout, should she decide to over-rule the muppet on the radio. a capable CotC would have the nous to make his own descision regarding safety, and the shoulders to carry the descision.

[peckstar]

noonan talks

this interested me

And perhaps we should take a leaf from Formula 1 and MotoGP and equipe the Safety Car occupants with helmets, HANS Devices, race suits and whatever safety equipment is deemed necessary.

[STEALTHY]

I still stand by, there should be a max speed for SC periods. Since its usually used to clean up debris and other things, anywhere on the circuit. A car in the wall in one section of the track means go for your life on the rest of the circuit, yet there could be marshals on the track in other places.

[NewsStalker]

The leader was Jamie, until another car had passed him, he was still always going to be the leader. If, and only if, garth had managed to get past

I'll say thanks - saved me the bother of trying to hammer this home to peckstar again!

But - on this - EVEN if the race leader is passed, UNDER SC CONDITIONS on the track, the car that has overtaken him is NOT the race leader/ All lap counting, scoring, timing etc is done under FIA rules from one point only. Whilst they may show lead changes at points around the track, everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember - there is ONE point only that is official.

[Uncle Cranker]

Originally Posted by STEALTHY

I still stand by, there should be a max speed for SC periods. Since its usually used to clean up debris and other things, anywhere on the circuit. A car in the wall in one section of the track means go for your life on the rest of the circuit, yet there could be marshals on the track in other places.

Stealthy,
I have been one of those Marshalls who, at various times over 20 years have been trying to do all of the points listed below during a Safety Car period, and let me tell you, I use the term 'Safe' with a great deal of reservation:

a) put out a Fire,
b) get a driver out of a crashed car,
c) load a driver into the back seat of the medical car
d) help load a rooted car on a tilt-tray
e) clean up the racing surface to make it safe for a restart

Let me tell you, the only time you can turn side on (never back to the traffic) is when the train comes past, because after it's gone, the cars trying to catch it are at warp speed.


I suggest a couple of fairly simple suggestions to fix to some of the safety car issues that might negate the need to speed limit cars during a safety car period.


Firstly; Close pit lane during safety car periods; this does two things, it gets rid of the chase to catch up, and it doesn’t disadvantage the bloke who just passes pit entry when the boards & flags come out.

Secondly, get rid of Schenken:







.

[peckstar]

Originally Posted by NewsStalker

I'll say thanks - saved me the bother of trying to hammer this home to peckstar again!

But - on this - EVEN if the race leader is passed, UNDER SC CONDITIONS on the track, the car that has overtaken him is NOT the race leader/ All lap counting, scoring, timing etc is done under FIA rules from one point only. Whilst they may show lead changes at points around the track, everyone needs to take a deep breath and remember - there is ONE point only that is official.

you do realise that a car in the pits can be passed under a saftey car dont you.

The Safety car picks up the leader on the track not some theoritical leader at a point on the track.

if you pass a car wherever you are on a track and then the next second the SC sign comes out, you dont revert back to your position at the start of that lap you stay in the same position, nothing to do with some imaginary official line. The official line is only relevant for the finish of the race and is useful for providing timing and for lap counting