STR to become Scuderia Lancia????

[KA]

Originally Posted by Gt_R

I would agree that the costs would make it extremely unlikely, especially considering that it wasn't too long ago that FIAT was really struggling with money.

It is a possibility though for FIAT to explore. Lancia has a rich history, but in recent times have largely been forgotten and branding wise they are weak. F1 is one means to gain quick brand-building in the global sense which Lancia desperately needs.

Rather than seeing the "costs" of owning two teams, i would think FIAT is considering leveraging on Ferrari's resources. With cost structure set to stablize, and regulation stability a possibility, FIAT is merely evaluating whether it could make good sense. With no engine development costs, Lancia could run relatively on a "budget" with relative competitiveness with their own chassis. Lancia would not need the big budget to compete and beat the big teams (ie Mclaren/Ferrari/BMWs). All Lancia need is to run reasonably in the mid-field, occasional points, compete amongst the Renault/Red Bull/Williams and get some coverage/publicity.

What are the alternatives? Getting Lancia into WRC will not be "fitting" for their new image, and the cost will be high too if they want to be competitive. F1 does have costs, but it makes sense IF the proposed changes towards rules stablizing and costs control become a reality.

Re-branding the engines as Lancia, and owning just a majority of the team with other stakeholders to split costs, FIAT could just make it viable enough for their purpose.

Now looking at it that way might make more sense- it's odd though, given that in recent years, FIAT has avoided having its' various divisions and subsidiaries compete against each other, hence Ferrari in F1, Alfa in touring cars, Maserati in sportscars etc...

If FIAT's thinking is that WRC is no longer fitting for Lancia's new image (which is very sad IMO, as Lancia were such a major part of international rallying for so many years- it really is the major part of their motorsport heritage in the last 50 years), then realistically F1 is the only area they could place any potential Lancia programme, without having to reposition one of the other brands in sporting terms.

[duke_toaster]

Haven't Alfa stopped making touring cars? In which case we could se Lancia doing tourers.

[Malfunction Junction]

Maserati are in GT racing, whereas FIAT has no prescence in prototypes. This may be a better vehicle for Lancia, as they have history there too.

The question that springs to mind is where they will fit WRC into their program. FIAT seems to be positioning itself to compete in just about every major form of motor sport with one or other identity, so what will the WRC brand be? FIAT itself perhaps?

Back on topic, I can't see FIAT buying Toro Rosso. Given that a manufacturer would be the most likely buyer, who would it be?

GM? Struggling to get itself out of a hole. Nobody in corporate US believes in F1 enough to buy a team. Opel might be the only brand they've got with a GP history.

Ford? See GM

Mitsubishi? See GM. Not really cognisant with it's rally/raid image.

Nissan? Partner with Renault, not going to be interested.

Mazda? Seems to prefer racing it's rotaries, so aside from GT racing, probably not that interested.

Suzuki? Too small.

Yamaha? Still feeling burnt by F1 from the 90's I suspect.

Subaru? The rally company. Has worked with Prodrive for decades, has never been a suggestion it would be something they'd want to do, but I'd suggest it would be with prodrive, if at all. I know there was the flat 12 years ago, but that was really just somebody convincing them to pay for a slightly larger alfa romeo engine from the 70's....

VAG? Intriguing possibility, but they've already said no often enough they might believe it. Probably the only company with enough backing that has a big enough hole in it's brand imagery to justify it, but which brand? VW? No. Bugatti? No history in living memory but has been the technology flagship of late. Audi? Connotations of Nazi auto unions (though Mercedes has successfully moved on). Lamborghini? Not much history, but did supply a very good engine in the 90's under chrysler ownership. Would be a good fit going up against Ferrari. Skoda? You've got to be kidding me. Do they own Seat? See Skoda. What else is there?

Who else?

Tata? Stranger things have happened, but possibly still chewing on the cost of buying Land Rover & Jaguar.

Proton? C'mon!

Hyundai? Hmmmm. They're big enough, ambitious enough, have had WRC and touring car experience in the past. Hmmmm.

Kia? Part of Ford now aren't they? See Ford.

The others I haven't mentioned have been omitted purely because this post is long enough already - !

All this means I think a manufacturer (aside from VAG or Hyundai) isn't likely to buy it, which leaves another entrepeneur willing to give it a go. There's plenty around, but would somebody in the league of a Branson really think a middling F1 team fits his/her image? The first thing you'd need is an engine (Cosworth surely?) and the second thing you'd need is a chassis/gearbox (Lola/Dallara/even Panoz?) The hurdles are huge, but if you got started right now it might work out.

[JohnSSC]

Renault owns Nissan, I believe so no reason to compete against themselves particularly when the commitment to the existing program is not exactly solid.

GM pulled the plug on the Cadillac program...if that was too expensive...and keep in mind they have a fairly heavy $$ commitment in NASCAR here.

Mazda is part of Ford - not sure if Mitsu is still partially owned by whoever owns Chrysler these days. Either way, these folks have nothing to gain by spending $300 million or more/year on F1.

As far as individual entrepeneurs I can't think of anyone with pockets deep enough to be able to spend (or attract) $300 million per season for the glory of dicing with Force India.

Bottom line is that the economics of F1 are all wrong for an era when credit is drying up and the economy is slowing.

[KA]

Originally Posted by Malfunction Junction

.

VAG? Intriguing possibility, but they've already said no often enough they might believe it. Probably the only company with enough backing that has a big enough hole in it's brand imagery to justify it, but which brand? VW? No. Bugatti? No history in living memory but has been the technology flagship of late. Audi? Connotations of Nazi auto unions (though Mercedes has successfully moved on). Lamborghini? Not much history, but did supply a very good engine in the 90's under chrysler ownership. Would be a good fit going up against Ferrari. Skoda? You've got to be kidding me. Do they own Seat? See Skoda. What else is there?

I'd reckon the Nazi-Auto Union connotation wouldn't be the problem for Audi, but a bigger problem to me is that they seem keen to use their motorsport programmes to showcase an aspect of their production technology

If you look back, for years we had various guises of Quattro demonstrating their use of 4wd in WRC, DTM, IMSA, Supertouring and so on. The R8= FSI injection, and the R10 shows off their diesel capabilities. Unless F1 starts allowing diesels, or Audi start fitting KERS into their road cars, I'd be surprised to see them in F1 anytime soon. Currently sportscars seem to be a better fit for them, F1 just doesn't strike me as being particularly relevant to Audi's image.

Skoda has a stack of motorsport heritage to exploit, but it's very centred on rallying- if VAG take Skoda back into motorsport it'll probably be WRC again.

Yes, SEAT are part of VAG, seem very keen on promoting a sporting image but they're heavily committed in touring cars- again I don't see them going elsewhere right now

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by Malfunction Junction

Suzuki? Too small.

I doubt it, but they could if they worked with someone like Prodrive/Triple Eight.

Yamaha? Still feeling burnt by F1 from the 90's I suspect.

Prolly couldn't do it on their own.

Subaru? The rally company. Has worked with Prodrive for decades, has never been a suggestion it would be something they'd want to do, but I'd suggest it would be with prodrive, if at all. I know there was the flat 12 years ago, but that was really just somebody convincing them to pay for a slightly larger alfa romeo engine from the 70's....

Don't prodrive have a "franchise" for 2009? Surely Subaru would club up with them rather than do that.

(VW AG)but which brand? VW? No.

Why not? It's their biggest brand.

Audi? Connotations of Nazi auto unions (though Mercedes has successfully moved on).

Doubt that will matter. Nice cars, shame they didn't use them to run over those that bankrolled them. Like their diesels and their four wheel drive, though.

Lamborghini? Not much history, but did supply a very good engine in the 90's under chrysler ownership.

Well, it was Chrysler with a Lambo badge. VWAG would want to promote a less premium brand, probably.

Skoda? You've got to be kidding me.

Why? They are a brand on the rise, they don't have as much of the bad reputation as they used to.

Do they own Seat? See Skoda. What else is there?

Yes. SEAT is used a lot for their diesel touring cars.

Who else?

Tata? Stranger things have happened, but possibly still chewing on the cost of buying Land Rover & Jaguar.

If they wanted in, they'd be talking more to Vijay Mallya.

Proton? C'mon!

Doubt it, although they own Lotus!

Hyundai? Hmmmm. They're big enough, ambitious enough, have had WRC and touring car experience in the past. Hmmmm.

Stranger things have happened.

Kia? Part of Ford now aren't they? See Ford.

I believe so.

Silly idea of my own : some Russian businessman (Abramovich or similar) and ... LADA!

[Greenback]

I dont think money will be an issue for FIAT/Ferrari. All they need is to make trip to middle east and get some shiekh as an investor for team B. however I doubt this will happen anytime soon because

a) Uncertainty of FIA and future rules because of Max Mosley
b) Ferrari just got themselves involved in A1GP

[Oldtony]

No one seems to have mentioned that VAG is predominantly owned and controlled by Porsche who of course have a company policy of NOT competing with anyone if possible. Now if they could get F1 to be a one make series????
Seriously, F1 is just too dumb to be ttractive to VAG with it's restrictive technical specifications. In fact my worry is that unless there are some changes it might become too technically dumb for BMW, Mercedes, Renault, Toyota and Honda.
THat very problem may make F1 less technically competitive and thus more attractive to an emerging manufacturer like Tata, or China inc. to try and attract some high tech image. Hyundai would be a good fit too.

[OZ_HCR32]

In 2010, i dont get the new regs. Odds are it will mean that teams and owners like Berger will most likely walk away from the sport

Surely the sport needs more cars on the grid. I know i woudl hate seeing only 16 cars on the grid

[Chiefy]

Now I would quite like to see SAAB via GM.

But according to that massive list of various auto manufacturers, Malfunction Junction, it seems that nobody could want in after all!

When the costs come down, I will buy in myself.

[Bononi]

Me too...

[Notso Swift]

Originally Posted by OZ_HCR32

Surely the sport needs more cars on the grid. I know i woudl hate seeing only 16 cars on the grid

IF it drops below a number (and I cannot remember exactly, but I think it is 18) constructors will field 3 car teams, so your 16 becomes 24, and it looks quite healthy!

[KA]

Originally Posted by Notso Swift

IF it drops below a number (and I cannot remember exactly, but I think it is 18) constructors will field 3 car teams, so your 16 becomes 24, and it looks quite healthy!

What's so healthy about 3 car teams? All that means is if Ferrari and McLaren retain their current degree of dominance, everyone else is paying more to fight for the chance to finish 7th instead of 5th...

If you're mid-pack or back of the grid, 3-car teams simply decreases your chances of ever getting into the points.

Even worse, if a manufacturer bails out- and they will- you lose three cars with each one that goes instead of two. If we reach the point of 3-car teams, then we're in big trouble...

It's nothing more than moving the deckchairs on the Titanic...

[Ultimo]

Originally Posted by KA

What's so healthy about 3 car teams? All that means is if Ferrari and McLaren retain their current degree of dominance, everyone else is paying more to fight for the chance to finish 7th instead of 5th...

If you're mid-pack or back of the grid, 3-car teams simply decreases your chances of ever getting into the points.

Even worse, if a manufacturer bails out- and they will- you lose three cars with each one that goes instead of two. If we reach the point of 3-car teams, then we're in big trouble...

It's nothing more than moving the deckchairs on the Titanic...

Maybe if it goes to three car teams then the points will be extended to lower positions.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Maybe if it goes to three car teams then the points will be extended to lower positions.

It may be cheaper for Bernie to field his own team.

[Bononi]

The top teams (read manufacturers) would buy an build B teams, sell them cheap for privateers and keep them in a rotatory way just like the post-Jordan team has been in the last years... that would be a way out of the 3 car rule.

[Mekola]

I still think that the three-car teams could be a good idea, put it as an optional for manufacturers. Is an excellent business for them if they can conquer all the podium for themselves.

Originally Posted by Marbot

It may be cheaper for Bernie to field his own team.

And Trevor Carlin as his team director. Carlin did a lot to put the Brabham name back in motorsport, it has been his long-term desire as we know. He tried to rename that way his own team, many years ago.

[Mekola]

BTW, there are no news about the Lancia comeback rumour???

[thelaminator2]

Cant see it myself and has no one else noticed the VW sponsership on the Torro Rosso pit walls and trucks
A tentitive toe in the water before full ownership and rebranding ?

[duke_toaster]

Originally Posted by thelaminator2

Cant see it myself and has no one else noticed the VW sponsership on the Torro Rosso pit walls and trucks
A tentitive toe in the water before full ownership and rebranding ?

They provide the trucks. It's more of a sponsorship by the commercial vehicles arm, supposedly.