"Daytona Prototypes is the greatest road racing in the United States"

[Speed-King]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

That would be great. Then the Corvettes could come back and beat the DPs AGAIN.

Huh? Why "AGAIN"? Porsche has beaten the DPs, but Corvette?

[Andy Flinn]

Yeah, and the Penske ALMS LMP2's continue beating all of the ALMS LMP1's this year.

I'm not sure what your point is other than to start an ALMS vs. Grand-Am flame war.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

Huh? Why "AGAIN"? Porsche has beaten the DPs, but Corvette?

2001 the last year Corvette Racing was at the Daytona 24 hour. Out qualified and finished 1st over all. Actually many real GT cars finished ahead of the DPs or prototypes.

Significant rule changes were made for 2002 to prevent GT cars from being ON top again.

[Speed-King]

The DP-era began only in 2003, though...

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The DP-era began only in 2003, though...

GARR did talk with Corvette Racing about returning. Corvette Racing want to keep the C6r with the 7 liter engine. GARR said NO. So Pontiac remains the sponsor with the 6.2 liter Pontiac badge corvette engine.

[jhansen]

Originally Posted by Speed-King

The DP-era began only in 2003, though...

Correct.

Suffice to say, history has little to do with this discussion folks. Either you agree that Grand-Am is now offering the best road racing in North America, or you disagree. Give your opinion, but lets not drag up the past.

[AU N EGL]

Grand AM is Good racing, Not the best.

[HORNDAWG]

Balderdash!! While I will admit that I do watch and enjoy it at times to say that it is the "Greatest" is IMO a naive reach at best.

L.P.

[Adam43]

Thread re-opened, after a little pruning.

This is not a ALMS/Grand Am war thread. If your new to 10-10ths then you may not know how these threads can go, but I am sure you can imagine! If you are an established 10-10ths user then you will know how it works. Can you show a little tolerance, sense and help 10-10ths here.

So the racing in Grand Am, good?
Why does it have so many close races? The cars are close? The cars can race closely together? Quality pedallers?
Is every race a nail-biter or is that a bit of a fiction?
Will it be the same next year?

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Thread re-opened, after a little pruning.

This is not a ALMS/Grand Am war thread. If your new to 10-10ths then you may not know how these threads can go, but I am sure you can imagine! If you are an established 10-10ths user then you will know how it works. Can you show a little tolerance, sense and help 10-10ths here.

So the racing in Grand Am, good?
Why does it have so many close races? The cars are close? The cars can race closely together? Quality pedallers?
Is every race a nail-biter or is that a bit of a fiction?
Will it be the same next year?

You are asking a question without defining your question.

Whether racing is "good" depends on what one calls good racing.
Racing is good in GARRA only if one is of the hero driver sect, as the mechanical component of GARRA is of zero importance, all are forced to perform as close to exactly the same as possible.

So if you are a fan of drivers, it may be good, if one is not, is is not good and never will be.
Bob

[Adam43]

Which was sort of the point; mine were just open, vague, questions for you to take and do with what you like. Thank you for doing so.

Sounds ideal in that we have a series based round the cars and one series based around car equality for the drivers. I am naturally drawn to the former, but the choice of the latter is good.

Are the best drivers showing their worth then?

[Danske]

Sigh. Sure, go tell the Gainsco crew, Link Smith and Kyle Brannan included, that they have made no contribution to the team's success; Alex and Jon could have made any car drive like it was glued to the track. Go tell Kevin Doran that the new engine, suspension, and weight distribution didn't have anything to do with the improved handling and the car running in third position at the opening of the Miller round; Memo just got better.

No, there's never going to be a Daytona Prototype such that given exclusive access to it any old lightbulb could put it on pole, but there's also not going to be a driver so wonderful that he could put any old DP on pole.

While the DP design box may be too small for the likes of some, competition is ongoing within that box, and the crews do more than just haul the cars from race to race and service them during pit stops. The drivers are not mere lightbulbs but neither are all the cars identical sockets.

On the competiveness front, that's a murky area. Either Gainsco winning seven of fourteen races in the season is a high number, used by some as evidence of the formula failing to equalize teams of all levels of ability, or a low number, evidence for some that the formula is so stifling that a clearly superior team can only win half the races. IMO, even a "dominant" Pontiac Riley crewed and piloted by a troop of retarded monkeys would fail miserably in Grand-Am, which is a good thing, whereas I'm afraid I might have to give Audi's opposition in ALMS P1 only even odds against simliar simian opponents with an R10. [<- Rhetorical Humor Alert]

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by AdamAshmore

Thread re-opened, after a little pruning.

Oh so tempting, but I wont go there.

So the racing in Grand Am, good?

Yes it is good.

Why does it have so many close races? The cars are close? The cars can race closely together? Quality pedallers?

NO NASCAR like rules for a NASCAR OWNED event. ie for show not motorsports.

Is every race a nail-biter or is that a bit of a fiction?

Nail bitter? oh I would not go that far. NASCAR and GARR are a closer to WWF then motorsports.

Will it be the same next year?

Yes, unfortunitly.

[PorscheFanNo1]

Speaking of next year, anyone seen any pictures of the Lolas, Dallaras and all those new designes yet? Or wont we see them until after Daytona...

And what Porsche engines/teams will there be? All running the old flat-6 exept the one team running the Cayenne V8 (that I cant remember the name of sadly)?

[Purist]

Spirit of Daytona is running the Porsche V8 in a Fabcar chassis.

I hope someone puts some serious resources behind the Chase.

The main issue I have is that the cars are close enough that most are weak in the same areas and strong in the same areas. It makes passing much more difficult. It makes the cars movements look more static relative to one another, and it means one driving style is likely to be favorable over most others, regardless of how adaptive the best drivers are able to be. A great driver still has his comfort zone, and will perform better in that zone.

[dxk1]

I agree with Danske! While there may be limited changes one can make to the GARRA DP & GT racers, the Gainsco crew has certainly figured out the formula. While Fogarty and Gurney are very good drivers, there are some other teams that may be slightly better yet they have won the most poles and most races. Must be something to the way the cars are prepared that contributes!

DK

[TWK]

jhansen:

Either you agree that Grand-Am is now offering the best road racing in North America, or you disagree.

I disagree. Even in regard to the question of "close finishes," It's my observation (belief, since I haven't seen all the Grand Am races) that to the extent that they have been closer than those among the prototypes in the other road racing series it is because the field has been bunched up by "circumstances beyond the control of the entrants" close enough to the finish to coincidentally incur a close finish.

However, to be "the best racing," it isn't enough to be the closest. The race has to be otherwise appealing, whether because of cars, strategy, diversity, sight, sound, quality of the venue for the road racing experience for both fans and drivers. It's easy to achieve "close." Just throw thirty Star Mazdas out there. Bingo! Does that make SM the "best racing?"

[broadrun96]

Originally Posted by dxk1

I agree with Danske! While there may be limited changes one can make to the GARRA DP & GT racers, the Gainsco crew has certainly figured out the formula. While Fogarty and Gurney are very good drivers, there are some other teams that may be slightly better yet they have won the most poles and most races. Must be something to the way the cars are prepared that contributes!

DK

Except if you figure out something that could help out your particular team, they invalidate it through absurd and arbitrary rules changes. Cant remember if it was Ruby Tuesday or another Porsche team but they went for fuel strategy and could have driven almost every race on supposedly one less pit stop but the GARRA introduced the mandatory pit stop within 45 min and pretty much screwed their chances.
As for for the Spirit of Daytona, I thought they were going at it on their own. I thought I had read that Porsche wasn't on board with the Cayenne V8 project and the flat 6 would be the standard for "Porsche" teams next year.
And it looks like there will be one less Riley in the field, just hoping the Dallara will be better looking. And another new GT could make the field a bit more enjoyable by adding another manufacturer to the class with the premiere of the M6 in racing. Personally not a fan of the races but tune in to watch Daytona, long winter off makes you hunger for any racing, but with the new chassis they could make an occasional fan out of me.

[Adam43]

Originally Posted by Danske

Sigh. Sure, go tell the Gainsco crew, Link Smith and Kyle Brannan included, that they have made no contribution to the team's success; Alex and Jon could have made any car drive like it was glued to the track. Go tell Kevin Doran that the new engine, suspension, and weight distribution didn't have anything to do with the improved handling and the car running in third position at the opening of the Miller round; Memo just got better.

Why the sigh? No one was suggesting crews don't make a difference. It is almost a shame you're brought it into the thread in such a manner, because it is an interesting point. Maybe it wasn't said before because it went as read? Obviously we have all seen that even in one make championships some teams are better than others and it isn't the driver making all the difference.

It is important going into the final round, the crews will have a big input; whether that is engineering speed into the car, cuting out mechanical gremlines, or turning the car round quicker. They will decide the close championship as much as the drivers.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by TWK

It's easy to achieve "close." Just throw thirty Star Mazda's out there. Bingo! Does that make SM the "best racing?"

I agree. Back to topic



I wonder if Porsche was upset with the Cayenne V8 project. That engine was making some good power.

[Andy Flinn]

Adam, I'm sorry I suggested that Grand-Am DP racing may be much better than the Corvette parade we currently see in ALMS GT-1.

The topic, posted here by someone else, is DP racing.

In my opinion, and it's the opinion of others as well, including Bob Stallings, DP racing this year has been MUCH more competitive, exciting and unpredictable than anything we've seen this year in ALMS GT-1.

I assumed some of your regular posters, who posted here to criticize DP racing, would be able to handle a little criticism of their own beloved racing series.

Obviously, I was wrong.

In the future I'll assume your regular posters can't handle criticism.

[SebringMG]

And you are just as biased as they are from the sound of your posts!!

Anyway GT-1 in the ALMS is just a tad boring atm (how can it not be) but the other THREE classes make up for that Each series has their problems after all while the racing is good in GA the cars look boring.

Anyway each to their own!! If you enjoy it that is all that matters!!

[Bob Riebe]

Originally Posted by Andy Flinn

Adam, I'm sorry I suggested that Grand-Am DP racing may be much better than the Corvette parade we currently see in ALMS GT-1.

The topic, posted here by someone else, is DP racing.

In my opinion, and it's the opinion of others as well, including Bob Stallings, DP racing this year has been MUCH more competitive, exciting and unpredictable than anything we've seen this year in ALMS GT-1.

I assumed some of your regular posters, who posted here to criticize DP racing, would be able to handle a little criticism of their own beloved racing series.

Obviously, I was wrong.

In the future I'll assume your regular posters can't handle criticism.

As I said if one likes SCCA spec. series where only the driver matters, one may like GARRA; but if one like series where a gear-head can still see, at least to some degree, which manufacturer has the best gea, IMSA is all that is left.

GARRA, regardless of what is written on the cam or rocker cover is reduced to same poo, same pile.
THe IMSA while if it follows the ACO is getting closer to GARRA, as of now it is different poo, totally different piles.

Bob

[Andy Flinn]

SebringMG:

Of course I'm biased.

Are only biased ALMS fans welcome here?

[Andy Flinn]

Bob:

Best manufacturer?

Grand-Am is the greatest road racing in the U.S. because one manufacturer (Audi, Porsche, Corvette) doesn't win everything.

The ALMS GT2 class is good racing because Ferrari, Porsche and the Panoz actually compete for wins. Even the ALMS LMP2 class is dominated by Penske Porsches (9 wins in ten races).

If you think DP is spec (Riley, Crawford, Fabcar, Chase, Multimatic; Pontiac, Lexus, Porsche, Ford, BMW, Porsche; Dallara, Lola, etc.), obviously, you don't watch the races.