Return of the V12

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by P38 in workshop

Seriously guys I don't think you have grasped the fanaticism that opposes the use of internal combustion engines in some very vocal quarters.They are going to be unobtainable for road use quite soon and you seem to believe it will be acceptable to scorch around circuits making lots of noise because you like the sound?We will be very lucky if motorsport still exists in ten years.It isn't a situation I like to contemplate,but how far are you willing to go to keep some form of high level competition?Even NASCAR is mapping a path to hybrid use,as it the BTCC so why should there be a money and hydrocarbon burning exception?

As said, what use is a 2025 hybrid formula gonna be? Any further lessons learned would hit the public road 2030 at the earliest. At that point we will be firmly in the electric era and hybrid will just be as irrelevant as a conventional combustion vehicle, just a multitude more expensive and heavier.

Synthetic fuels or battery is basically the same footprint. Both would use green electricity to store the energy, both are more or less co2 neutral (in case of synthetic fuel you first collect the co2 from the atmosphere to then use green electricity to create the fuel, so in the end more or less co2 neutral).

On the subject of sound, I don't think it is a good idea to go back to the noise levels of previous atmospheric F1 engines. Some sound damping would be in order (still vastly better sounding than the current ones).

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

As said, what use is a 2025 hybrid formula gonna be? Any further lessons learned would hit the public road 2030 at the earliest. At that point we will be firmly in the electric era and hybrid will just be as irrelevant as a conventional combustion vehicle, just a multitude more expensive and heavier.

Synthetic fuels or battery is basically the same footprint. Both would use green electricity to store the energy, both are more or less co2 neutral (in case of synthetic fuel you first collect the co2 from the atmosphere to then use green electricity to create the fuel, so in the end more or less co2 neutral).

On the subject of sound, I don't think it is a good idea to go back to the noise levels of previous atmospheric F1 engines. Some sound damping would be in order (still vastly better sounding than the current ones).

I have always thought hybrids were a stop gap measure and had a short life cycle as a concept. Those of us who live in the more remote parts of the world realize the BEV's simply can't work and in the foreseeable future won't. In our metro areas and major highways they will but not out in the bush. The obvious solution to that is the range extender concept but that idea seems to have been ignored so far. In fact you could say that for the majority of the world BEV's are impossible and yet the major brands are saying they are abandoning the rest of the world by not planning any production of ICE's at all. It is obvious that ICE's will be needed but on present plans published it is hard to see who is going to build them. For the densly populated parts of the world BEV's are absolutely the future and there is no avoiding that.

As far as F1 goes I think they are between a rock and a hard place with nowhere to go. The next PU has to go into the mid 30's and by that time ICE will be the mainstream and not the oddity. No one has the crystal ball to say what will happen but in 5 years time they will introduce a PU for the next ten years and that is a lead time of 15 years to the end of that decision that is going to be made shortly. It certainly does not sound like a decision that can be made now.

The idea of going back to ICE with no turbo is purely fantasy of course so not worth discussing.

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by Casper

I have always thought hybrids were a stop gap measure and had a short life cycle as a concept. Those of us who live in the more remote parts of the world realize the BEV's simply can't work and in the foreseeable future won't. In our metro areas and major highways they will but not out in the bush. The obvious solution to that is the range extender concept but that idea seems to have been ignored so far. In fact you could say that for the majority of the world BEV's are impossible and yet the major brands are saying they are abandoning the rest of the world by not planning any production of ICE's at all. It is obvious that ICE's will be needed but on present plans published it is hard to see who is going to build them. For the densly populated parts of the world BEV's are absolutely the future and there is no avoiding that.

By 2030, ~60% of the world population will live in cities. Let's say that a conservative 15% of the remaining 40% who live in rural areas (especially in the developed world) can still use BEV's, you're looking at 75% of the world population that could use BEV's (not talking about if there is enough raw material for that or if the infrastructure will be there yet in 2030, so yes it will be lower).


All in all, I don't see a solid argumentation for the statement that from 2030 onwards for the majority of the world BEV's won't work.



For the other 25% and for the part of the world and for those for whom the raw materials will not be made available, synthetic fuels would have a far larger environmental impact than any multimillion hybrid F1 tech. The same goes for range extenders, synthetic fuels are relevant for those, F1 current engines won't be.

Originally Posted by Casper

As far as F1 goes I think they are between a rock and a hard place with nowhere to go. The next PU has to go into the mid 30's and by that time ICE will be the mainstream and not the oddity. No one has the crystal ball to say what will happen but in 5 years time they will introduce a PU for the next ten years and that is a lead time of 15 years to the end of that decision that is going to be made shortly. It certainly does not sound like a decision that can be made now.

If the ICE will be still be the most used power source it will be cheap and simple engines, because of cost, RAW materials availibility, maintainability or infrastructure reasons. Synthetic fuels will be relevant for those engine's. F1's hybrid tech won't be because it's the exact opposite for what is required for those uses.

Originally Posted by Casper

The idea of going back to ICE with no turbo is purely fantasy of course so not worth discussing.

"of course" is not a substitute for argumentation.

Turbo's have pro's and con's just like any other technology. Efficiency is an advantage, total engine size is (although a V10 or V12 can be built very compact and light as well). Complexity, sound and driveability wise atmospheric has clear advantages.

[chillibowl]

Where will the oil companies be by 2030?

they are all suggesting they will be pumping significantly less oil and gas by then and their public profile may be better served by changing their advertising strategies.

Are they more or less likely to invest at their current level in a sport that is pushing the IC envelope or in one that is reverting to simpler engine tech from a half century ago?

[Taxi645]

Originally Posted by chillibowl

Where will the oil companies be by 2030?

they are all suggesting they will be pumping significantly less oil and gas by then and their public profile may be better served by changing their advertising strategies.

Are they more or less likely to invest at their current level in a sport that is pushing the IC envelope or in one that is reverting to simpler engine tech from a half century ago?

Synthetic fuel would be a mayor interest to oil companies, because it would allow them to reuse large parts of their infrastructure and product placement and project forward into a world that is increasingly critical of their current practises.


Oil companies have logically never really had mayor interest in fuel efficiency so pushing the IC envelope is less to their interest than pushing the fuel envelope.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Taxi645

A 3.5L V12.

That's it, no KERS, no Turbo's.

Yes, please! Excellent suggestion Taxi645.

That's not a power unit...




This is a power unit:

[Adam43]

You talk a load of rubbish. This is a power unit.

[S griffin]

Not suggesting they turn a handle to start the engine like the old days?

[hondafan37]

I like the idea of ​​the V12 return.


What did happen to the idea of ​​2-stroke engines with eco fuel?
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...than-formula-e

A 2-stroke V12 would be very good.

[Richard Casto]

Originally Posted by hondafan37

I like the idea of ​​the V12 return.


What did happen to the idea of ​​2-stroke engines with eco fuel?
https://www.motorsportmagazine.com/a...than-formula-e

A 2-stroke V12 would be very good.

IMHO it was a combination of Achates Power (who have a horizontally opposed two stroke engine with novel solutions to address the negatives of two stroke including a diesel like ignition) in which their sales/marketing team is casting a wide net for a customer for their solution PLUS a slow news day in the motorsports world. They are currently focused on US DOD contracts and also a partnership with Ricardo (probably for things like truck engines, etc.). I am extremely doubtful any of this will show up in a serious way in motorsports. Especially not in a V12 F1 engine!

Their YouTube channel shows how it works as well as their focus. Actually not much in the way of recent news with them.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfi...oXCCMB6TyXopYg

Here is the TT thread on the topic.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154889

Richard

[Casper]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

IMHO it was a combination of Achates Power (who have a horizontally opposed two stroke engine with novel solutions to address the negatives of two stroke including a diesel like ignition) in which their sales/marketing team is casting a wide net for a customer for their solution PLUS a slow news day in the motorsports world. They are currently focused on US DOD contracts and also a partnership with Ricardo (probably for things like truck engines, etc.). I am extremely doubtful any of this will show up in a serious way in motorsports. Especially not in a V12 F1 engine!

Their YouTube channel shows how it works as well as their focus. Actually not much in the way of recent news with them.

https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCfi...oXCCMB6TyXopYg

Here is the TT thread on the topic.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=154889

Richard

Electric trucks will leap frog any new IC/diesel advances, the transport industry is literally salivating over the idea. Way way lower maintenance issues (I was a fleet manager for a few years) far lower trip times, less driver fatigue etc. Modern trucks are very quite internally but on long haul the silence of the electric truck will be a boon for drivers. We had trips where the truck did five days non stop except for refuelling and meal breaks with the second driver in the sleeper over the motor trying to sleep and that is never nice. I predict on major highways that overhead catenary charging will top up the batteries on the roll so the recharging problem goes away.

[S griffin]

What happens with trucks is irrelevant, it's fine for them, so I don't thing F1 really concerns itself with those vehicles there. I think the electric push is good in some areas, but not necessarily everywhere. Not knocking it, just think we shouldn't be comparing what happens in one area of transport with the whole of motorsport. Anyway technology on motor vehicles has been helped by F1 in some areas, but not all of them. I am sure all the electric motors have done just fine by themselves without needing any F1 technology, as they don't run on electrics and it's worked well for trucks, so that's all there is to it

[Casper]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Anyway technology on motor vehicles has been helped by F1 in some areas, but not all of them.

Please list the break throughs in F1 hybrid technology have reached the production line. I was responding to Richard in my post but Mea Culpa and all that for the reply that was not needed from your good self.

[chillibowl]

In fairness most of the tech has crossed over already.

Granted the tech is not in your average family minivan, neither are v12s mind you, but Merc built around 300 Project One hypercars and sold each one of them for 3mil.

Between the cars themselves, service plans, plus who knows how many other Mercs one had to buy just for the privilege to buy a Project One, Merc made close to 1 billion dollars. Probably more even.

I would think it is fair to say that they successfully monitized their F1 engine program.

i suspect Ferrari will eventually do the same.

[Adam43]

Have they actually built them?

And to think they only made 106 (V12) McLaren F1s.