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Old 8 Jan 2021, 10:41 (Ref:4027608)   #16
john ruston
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Williams started as a privateer running a year old car manufactured by others
Ronni Peterson, John Watson and many others had their first drives in privateer teams
It was only way to make up grids until late 60ís when you could buy DFVís
And it allowed the small constructors to build cars
Suggest the problem these days is the complexity of the cars
In the old days it was five mechanics and a few extras
Not the army involved as now
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 11:30 (Ref:4027618)   #17
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I can see why midfield and back of the grid teams who design and make their own car would be massively opposed to one of their competitors just buying a championship winning car off the shelf. Does anyone want to see the front two rows of the grid filled with the same car, with team orders and inter-team orders in play preventing proper racing?

F1 needs to be financially fair enough in order that the current teams do not go out of business. If we do lose teams, then one solution would be customer cars, but I would see that as a last resort. I would prefer to see the ridiculously over complicated and massively expensive engines and other costs cut first, so that teams can continue to operate, and potentially even new teams join.

Another issue is that F1 rules and regs change from season to season, so last years car might not be viable under this seasons regulations.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 11:41 (Ref:4027621)   #18
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Well, I say you can switch your attention to almost any other racing series out there, and leave the last surviving high-level constructor-based circuit racing series with no BoP for those of us who still appreciate that.
Your opinion is different to mine and I am expressing it and I explained why. F1 is strangling because it has become an engineering w***k fest, nothing more and nothing less and if it continues and it will without intervention then the best engineering team wins every time, enter the whinging about Mercedes winning every year. If it was a pure driving championship with no other reward then no driver is infallible and the champion is less predictable. It isn't going to happen so don't get your underwear in a twist.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 11:47 (Ref:4027625)   #19
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Well, I say you can switch your attention to almost any other racing series out there, and leave the last surviving high-level constructor-based circuit racing series with no BoP for those of us who still appreciate that.
Please don't lecture me on what I should do, I actually have been racing for about 50 years so direct your ire at someone else and let me express my own opinion. I don't criticise your view point or haven't you noticed.

Adam, I apologise for this post but some things need to be said. Please feel free to delete either of my posts, I have said my bit.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 12:48 (Ref:4027642)   #20
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I honestly don't understand what you're getting at. There are some who consider Earth is flat and a COVID19 vaccine contains a microchip with Boss Metal Zone scheme in it. Why not run with that then? Why not just make stuff up as we go along and use these "alternative facts" as arguments. That'll really improve the discussions around here..
This is such a ridiculous argument. Try thinking about this and the differences. Start by considering the words fact, opinion and subjective and how they differ.
(Purposely using your type of language here).

Read what people say and get their meaning rather than being so dismissive. You can be dismissive if someone claims the earth is flat. They didnít here.

Weíre done with this now. Think about it.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 13:03 (Ref:4027646)   #21
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Well, accounting that F1 is so commercially lucrative that one the features of it is gone (fluctuation of performance from year to year, self regulation and "natural attrition" of competitors moving or leaving), and these corporations acting as race teams are taking the mickey out of the series (Ferrari and MB in particular), the only way I can see to satisfy most factors is for F1 to expand to 2 or 3 divisions. And have promotion and relegation like European football leagues.

It's an overinflated economy. It's too hard to cherry pick specific features of the past and think its suitable now.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 13:17 (Ref:4027652)   #22
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Customer cars were once a thing in F1 and even since they were pretty much outlawed, the topic keeps popping up now and again in F1. Obviously there is plenty of pros and cons to it. On the one hand it could help new teams enter the sport. On the other it would be tougher for those building their own cars if they are beaten by a customer car and there might be a lot of arguments, which we can do without

Itís very hard to manage if you ask me. With major technical rule changes, like the one coming in in 2022, you canít always run last yearís cars. If you are to run customer cars a lot of thought would be needed into it. Maybe it could work if a new team comes in, it can run a customer car for the first 1-2 years, with say a weight handicap so it doesnít get a big advantage and then after that has to build itís own car. It might work, it might not. But I wouldnít want to be the one making the decision here
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 13:42 (Ref:4027656)   #23
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Well, accounting that F1 is so commercially lucrative that one the features of it is gone (fluctuation of performance from year to year, self regulation and "natural attrition" of competitors moving or leaving), and these corporations acting as race teams are taking the mickey out of the series (Ferrari and MB in particular), the only way I can see to satisfy most factors is for F1 to expand to 2 or 3 divisions. And have promotion and relegation like European football leagues.

It's an overinflated economy. It's too hard to cherry pick specific features of the past and think its suitable now.
Interesting idea. How would it work? Currently F1 can only muster ten teams so having additional divisions seems a stretch too far. But maybe with customer teams? Or would that be too expensive anyway. And when one got promoted would it then have to start building itís own car or can it still use customer? Or is the mix of customer and constructor across the divisions?
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 13:43 (Ref:4027657)   #24
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More generally if there are customer cars then is it best to limit to last years car as mentioned in passing above? How do we manage a transition to new rules (BoP?).
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 14:09 (Ref:4027659)   #25
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More generally if there are customer cars then is it best to limit to last years car as mentioned in passing above? How do we manage a transition to new rules (BoP?).
No plan is perfect and my suggestion does not work in a major change as will happen in a few years time. Having said that F1 in the past has allowed legacy cars to run in a split championship...atmo v's turbo which was not a roaring success so there maybe a legacy year where that could be repeated. Not ideal but if it works then why not.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 14:37 (Ref:4027664)   #26
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All things being equal (litteraly i suppose in this case), as with engines, customer car teams would rarely win, the best drivers would still want to race for the factory team, and when the occasional pink merc or rosso bull customer car wins its under a highly rare set of circumstance and most will be thrilled when it does because who doesnt like rare things.

It wont become like Indy car because Indy car only costs between 10-20 per car per season.

Williams, a poorer team, alone can afford to field half the current Indy grid with their current budget. Merc could field like 50 Indy cars if they wanted.

Even with the soon to be budget cap, F1 cars, customers or not, are still going to be very very expensive pieces of kit with team capable of spending on areas to differentiate themselves from each other.

While i dont see the need to get rid of the constructors, i can see the point Casper is making and it speaks to making this about driving, about putting the focus back on drivers...personally i like that philosophy.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 16:00 (Ref:4027679)   #27
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but going the other way and thinking about the economics of it...

lets say Merc builds 2 cars and used their full budget cap (175mil) so 2 cars cost them 87.5 mil per car (175/2).

if they built 4 cars (175/4), now each car costs 43.75 mil.

now they sell 2 of their 4 cars to Stroll at lets say their marginal cost so 87.5m (43.75*2).

because of the budget cap, Merc have already spent their 175m so would have no more money to spend developing their car (budget caps are about spending limits irrespective of income earned).

where as Stroll, who has only spent 87.5 mil buying customer cars, is still free to spend an extra 87.5m developing their purchased cars (175-87.5=87.5).

in effect, Stroll now has 2 cars that cost Merc 175m to build (but only paid 87.5m to buy) plus he gets to spend an extra 87.5m to get to him to his budget total of 175 giving him a relative budget of 262.5m...clearly more then what Merc can spend.

even if Merc raised the price, Stroll would still be have more money left over then Merc could spend because they already spent their full 175m. also Merc can only raise the price so much because Stroll is prohibited from spending more than 175m for two cars.

so if Merc sell 2 cars for 175m who would buy it?

the logic of buying a customer car is that it is cheaper then building your own...but as laid out, if Merc is compelled to sell them at the full 175m then why would Stroll not just say i am already building 2 cars for cheaper then that right now...why would i buy yours?

so whats the incentive for a works team to sell their entire package to a customer and whats the incentive for the customer to buy them at full price?

if the answer is because Merc can do a better job then Stroll, then it is likewise only rational to assume that Merc will also do a better job then Stroll's team on track (on account of the better staff, driver, and facilities then Stroll)...at which point we are right back where we started all be it with everyone spending less money right?

this is just back of a napkin thinking so no doubt there are holes in my logic (by all means point them out im not sensitive) but i dont think the old arguments against customer car still hold true given the new financial model of F1 (budget cap and fairer prize fund distribution).

at the least, think we need to see how this cap evolves before passing judgement.

of particular interest to me will be to see how much Mclaren with a customer engine can take the fight to Merc, RB, and Ferrari (if they get their act together) under the new formula.
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 16:52 (Ref:4027686)   #28
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so whats the incentive for a works team to sell their entire package to a customer and whats the incentive for the customer to buy them at full price?

if the answer is because Merc can do a better job then Stroll, then it is likewise only rational to assume that Merc will also do a better job then Stroll's team on track (on account of the better staff, driver, and facilities then Stroll)...at which point we are right back where we started all be it with everyone spending less money right?
For the customer (Stroll in your exemple) the advantage could be that by getting a Mercedes they will probably not beat Mercedes (the 'better job' part in your comparison seems real to me) but may stand a better chance against McLaren, Renault, Ferrari or even Red Bull
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Old 8 Jan 2021, 17:15 (Ref:4027693)   #29
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Surely it's possible to reduce the budget of teams that don't build their own?

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Old 8 Jan 2021, 18:03 (Ref:4027703)   #30
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For the customer (Stroll in your exemple) the advantage could be that by getting a Mercedes they will probably not beat Mercedes (the 'better job' part in your comparison seems real to me) but may stand a better chance against McLaren, Renault, Ferrari or even Red Bull
i intentionally used RP/Stroll in the example to facilitate this discussion point as they are the team currently upsetting the order with their customer cars....thank you Gert for taking the time to read my post and responding to it on point.

to answer...for sure that is the risk but is that inherently a bad thing? a new status quo where the manus are not automatically at the top of the ladder?

i would like to think that within a budget cap, the teams that do well are the teams that work the best, are the most efficient, create the best work environment etc...will have to wait and see on that though.

of course Stroll looks to have just bought what he needed to succeeded but this ex Force India team was punching well above their weight class for a while now...some of their current success imo is well deserved and beyond the scope of having just bought a pre made kit.
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