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Old 26 Dec 2014, 11:06 (Ref:3488720)   #26
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Come on John, get off Prost's back........
LOL. I know you know exactly who I mean, but don't want to reopen that debate on this thread which has already gone a bit O/T!
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Old 26 Dec 2014, 11:31 (Ref:3488721)   #27
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Trulli admitted he was more of an Alain Prost, which he also admitted didn't work during the refuelling era
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Old 27 Dec 2014, 21:22 (Ref:3488722)   #28
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LOL. I know you know exactly who I mean, but don't want to reopen that debate on this thread which has already gone a bit O/T!
Yeah, but it's more fun than the original thread idea.....
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Old 28 Dec 2014, 01:39 (Ref:3488723)   #29
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Yeah, but it's more fun than the original thread idea.....
The 10-Tenth's affect .
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 07:50 (Ref:3488724)   #30
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Stewart is an all-time legend and icon in my book, one of the greatest drivers of his era and someone who will always be remembered in that way. I think that was a strange era though. You had Rindt dying before he was crowned, the most revered driver of the era was probably Peterson who was never champion, while a double champ like Fittipaldi never hit the heights in terms of being seen as one of the true "greats". True in the 80s too, with some comparatively ordinary World Champions (Jones, Rosberg, even Piquet) and in Mansell, an "all-time great" who tended to be more the nearly man.

I think it's more clear-cut now. Alonso, double Champion but if anything has caught the imagination more with his exploits in the Ferrari, all-time great. Hamilton, the wonder rookie and all-time British number 1, multiple champ, all-time great. Vettel, four in a row, nobody can deny him a place alongside the other two.

Those three are definites. Too soon to say on Ricciardo, by far.
That's an interesting comment about Fittapaldi. he won two titles, one when he was very young at 23 but then won again two years later for McLaren. The Copersucar project for the brothers team didn't do a lot for him and never really worked and that probably sifted him from the forefront to the rear of the midfield in peoples consciousness.

Which is a point I made earlier. Being an icon is very subjective. Clark and to a lessor extent Stewart are /were icons to me because of Scottish heritage in my bloodline. My attitude toward Stewart has changed but when he was at BRM and Tyrrell, yes, he was an idol.

To people in Australia and New Zealand Brabham was a name everyone recognised, and down under he had extraordinary public recognition in both countries.
Everyone would have recognised the Brabham name in the 60's and into the 80's. In New Zealand at that time he was more 'iconic' than McLaren was.

So going back to Fittapaldi, returning to America and winning Indy and Indycar titles made him a real icon of South American racing drivers and a great in American eyes, more so than Senna.....

So really 'iconic' is quite subjective and often owes more to popular recognition within a region or culture than most of us realise. Yes you have to be very good but who you are, where you come from and where you race all make a significant contribution besides just how 'good' you were.
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 11:08 (Ref:3488725)   #31
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To me an"icon" is someone that is very good at their chosen sport and has a profile outside of it that the media can pick up on that probably clouds the issue a little
Reporting on car racing drivers 50 years ago was a bit different to today and would hardly make a daily paper unless they had won the F1 title of the year or they had been killed !
People like James Hunt/ Barry Sheene/Gerry Marshall etc will be remembered by their fans for their exploits off the track as well as on them, TV exposure and ads will make people remember them even more.
It can even work the other way round as people would have heard of "Eddie the Eagle"
Obviously if you are a keen F1 fan then "an icon" is subjective and possibly a driver who they have followed for years, even though they only won one WDC or none at all !
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 14:00 (Ref:3488726)   #32
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That's an interesting comment about Fittapaldi. he won two titles, one when he was very young at 23 but then won again two years later for McLaren. The Copersucar project for the brothers team didn't do a lot for him and never really worked and that probably sifted him from the forefront to the rear of the midfield in peoples consciousness.

Which is a point I made earlier. Being an icon is very subjective. Clark and to a lessor extent Stewart are /were icons to me because of Scottish heritage in my bloodline. My attitude toward Stewart has changed but when he was at BRM and Tyrrell, yes, he was an idol.

To people in Australia and New Zealand Brabham was a name everyone recognised, and down under he had extraordinary public recognition in both countries.
Everyone would have recognised the Brabham name in the 60's and into the 80's. In New Zealand at that time he was more 'iconic' than McLaren was.

So going back to Fittapaldi, returning to America and winning Indy and Indycar titles made him a real icon of South American racing drivers and a great in American eyes, more so than Senna.....

So really 'iconic' is quite subjective and often owes more to popular recognition within a region or culture than most of us realise. Yes you have to be very good but who you are, where you come from and where you race all make a significant contribution besides just how 'good' you were.
I think Fittipaldi, much like Mario Andretti, is an all-round Motorsport icon rather than an F1 icon. I think he also suffered by being paired with Peterson. As early as 1973 there was the feeling that while Emmo was the best, Peterson was the fastest. And in tems of bring an icon, everybody wants to be fastest. The old Senna vs Prost thing.
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 21:57 (Ref:3488727)   #33
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I think Fittipaldi, much like Mario Andretti, is an all-round Motorsport icon rather than an F1 icon. I think he also suffered by being paired with Peterson. As early as 1973 there was the feeling that while Emmo was the best, Peterson was the fastest. And in tems of bring an icon, everybody wants to be fastest. The old Senna vs Prost thing.
But Peterson is almost unknown in the US now whereas Fittapaldi is known by several million people who would recognise his name. So it goes back to the subjective thing again, and the location, place time factors.
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 23:58 (Ref:3488728)   #34
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Peterson is a long-term motorsport fan's icon, but perhaps more so if you're into Grand Prix racing and live on the European side of the pond. Fittipaldi might be more of a household name. Eddie the Eagle was more of a household name than many skiiers here in the UK. However, Fittipaldi was a really good driver
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Old 29 Dec 2014, 23:58 (Ref:3488729)   #35
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Peterson is a long-term motorsport fan's icon, but perhaps more so if you're into Grand Prix racing and live on the European side of the pond. Fittipaldi might be more of a household name. Eddie the Eagle was more of a household name than many skiiers here in the UK. However, Fittipaldi was a really good driver.

Edit: Just seen Gordon's Eddie the Eagle reference!
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Old 30 Dec 2014, 08:17 (Ref:3488730)   #36
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An 'icon' is, as I am sure we all knew, a religious painting depicting Jesus or some other Holy Figure, and is it's self treated a s 'Holy'.

It is also used to describe some one, or something that is symbolic of something.

I personally tend to think of 'icons of the sport' as those that have achieved more than just success, but that represent something unique in character.

Within 'motor sport' there are many 'icons', however, I believe that few would be recognised outside of the sport to any great degree, and it these few examples that I describe as 'Icons of the Sport.'

My particular 'hero' Mike Hawthorn by being Britain's first World Champion, and then dying so soon after retiring in a road accident, became a very public figure, and almost iconic. Just an example of my thinking you understand.

Carry on the discussion, occasionaly I am wrong.
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Old 30 Dec 2014, 12:48 (Ref:3488731)   #37
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I really think this is going to need a separate thread. I'm going to have to separate the discussion, as we have a new topic here.
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Old 30 Dec 2014, 18:17 (Ref:3488786)   #38
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Fittipaldi is an F1 icon. As first Brazilian EC, he was a forerunner to the mystical Brazilian Senna. And his Indycar "2nd life" kept this identity alive in the non-American imagination.

Icons create a great story and high drama. It's not simply a question of efficiently lodging wins and registering WC. You have to inspire.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 10:49 (Ref:3490035)   #39
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Sebastian Vettel, for example, is far from being an icon, despite his four world championships. In Germany, apparently, he is unable to prevent declining viewing figures. He doesn't seem to have inspired. Somehow, metronomic success has not given him the iconic status Michael Schumacher enjoyed. His drubbing at the hands of team newcomer Ricciardo is unlikely to help.

That other four-time champion Prost is not iconic enough to a wider population, despite beating Senna a lot in equal cars. He even had what was possibly a ruthless moment too (Suzuka '89), like Senna, but Joe Public doesn't know him so well. Anyway, to many F1 fans he's an icon.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 11:30 (Ref:3490040)   #40
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I would say Prost is iconic courtesy of his role as protagonist in his duel with Senna during those halcyon years. It takes two to create high drama.

Schumacher tapped into the lower middle class kid that through hard work, can conquer the world. Vettel isn't defined that way and when he came along Germans winning had become old hat.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 18:07 (Ref:3490117)   #41
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Yes, I suppose that Prost became an iconic figure in part by virtue of the presence of such a formidable opponent in Senna. Likewise, Senna arguably needed Prost to be such tough opposition to help solidify his own stature as a great; Ayrton may not have come to be regarded as so great had it not been for the challenge Alain laid down.

Although I enjoyed the Senna film, one could argue that it erred slightly too much on the side of a simple goodies vs baddies tale with Prost and Balestre cast as baddies.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 18:17 (Ref:3490121)   #42
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Although I enjoyed the Senna film, one could argue that it erred slightly too much on the side of a simple goodies vs baddies tale with Prost and Balestre cast as baddies.
Well, they certainly got one of those baddies right......
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 18:39 (Ref:3490132)   #43
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Prost was a genuine King. Master of his art, saw off his rivals. This high drama will also have more traction within the French imagination i.e his titanic bust up with Renault. Then Senna the pretender came along and drove the new King mad - and defeated him. Prost is an essential protagonist who goes on to survives his nemesis.

Prost's reputation is one of calculation and professionalism. Senna has more mystique, passion and that engages people so Prost will always be 'something' of a villain.

Balestre was a pig headed, prideful guy but in an uncomplicated way. He's an almost benign character compared to the calculating machiavellian double act that succeeded him.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 19:26 (Ref:3490143)   #44
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can people themselves be called icons?

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An 'icon' is, as I am sure we all knew, a religious painting depicting Jesus or some other Holy Figure, and is it's self treated a s 'Holy'.
there are of course other more contemporary definitions of the word but i feel as though this definition is still the most relevant.

so for me an icon is when an image of a person or thing becomes an object of worship.

granted there are many fans who have 'shrines' in their homes so there probably is a distinction to be made between genuine homage and outright worship but for an image to be considered an icon there needs to be people who believe that the image represents a conduit to speaking to something greater (god for example).

for me Senna is the only driver to have crossed over to that level in any measurable way.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 22:11 (Ref:3490182)   #45
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Icon can be used in both secular and religious terms. i.e 'That's an iconic building on our city skyline'. People aren't 'worshipping' the building but it may be a building with a dramatic history..etc.
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Old 5 Jan 2015, 22:19 (Ref:3490186)   #46
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People throw the terms 'icons' and 'legends' around far too often these days.
I would only ever denote famous people/events from antiquity and a random assortment of religious objects/art with such terms.



Except Jacques Villeneuve, who is an absolute legend!
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Old 6 Jan 2015, 03:07 (Ref:3490246)   #47
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This guy was a legend....and he signed my programme.

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