F1 announces fastest driver since, erm, 1983. - Page 2

**Aysedasi** · 19 Aug 2020, 15:39 (Ref:3996484)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

It’s the fastest drivers technically, no need to read too much into it.

No, it clearly isn't.... technically or otherwise....

Greem · 19 Aug 2020, 17:33 (Ref:3996513)

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find that Luca Badoer isn't top of the list.

**Woolley** · 19 Aug 2020, 18:49 (Ref:3996533)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Greem

I'm shocked, shocked I tell you, to find that Luca Badoer isn't top of the list.

Has he ever made the top of any list? Doesn't even quite make it alphabetically.

Fastest is such a blunt statistic and gives no account of race ability. Prost was never exceptionally quick, but was often quick enough to beat everyone else over a distance. For out and out quickest it would be hard to look beyond Stefan Bellof, surely.

Greem · 19 Aug 2020, 18:53 (Ref:3996535)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Has he ever made the top of any list?

Well, he was Ferrari's longest serving test driver, so that's something.

gert · 19 Aug 2020, 19:09 (Ref:3996539)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Has he ever made the top of any list?

He did in F3000 one year.

**chunterer** · 20 Aug 2020, 22:39 (Ref:3996765)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Woolley

Has he ever made the top of any list? Doesn't even quite make it alphabetically.

Fastest is such a blunt statistic and gives no account of race ability. Prost was never exceptionally quick, but was often quick enough to beat everyone else over a distance. For out and out quickest it would be hard to look beyond Stefan Bellof, surely.

Prost was bloody quick!! He just toned it down with experience.

Bellof often gets highly touted and was wild but didn't Brundle have his measure in general over the 1 and a half seasons they wete teammates?

**Adam43** · 20 Aug 2020, 22:42 (Ref:3996767)

His qualifying performances against Lauda were similar to Senna’s against him. I always liked to think that Prost, after losing to Lauda in 1984, twigged and changed his approach.

wolfhound · 21 Aug 2020, 09:30 (Ref:3996803)

Ross Brawn on the fastest driver

https://www.racefans.net/2020/08/20/...astest-driver/

cds_uk · 21 Aug 2020, 10:49 (Ref:3996822)

Quote:

Originally Posted by chunterer

Bellof often gets highly touted and was wild but didn't Brundle have his measure in general over the 1 and a half seasons they wete teammates?

Just had a quick flick through 84 and 85 Autocourse, Bellof outqualified him 11 to 8. Two each when they only had one turbo car between them in 85.

S griffin · 21 Aug 2020, 12:30 (Ref:3996843)

Bellof was certainly quick over one lap, however Brundle was probably the more disciplined of the two. Although considering Brundle had a couple of big smashes in 84, maybe Bellof wasn’t quite as reckless as people say he was, even if he did push it over the edge sometimes

wnut · 21 Aug 2020, 14:23 (Ref:3996872)

No Piquet, Mansell, DeAngelis? - Seriously.

About the only person Kubica ever convincingly got the better of in quali was Petrov, and he has now gone down zip twenty to Russell, yet there is Kubica and no Russell.

Hulkenburg 12 and Ricciardo 16 yet Ricciardo 14 - 7 as team mates in quali. ??

S griffin · 21 Aug 2020, 14:32 (Ref:3996874)

I think Prost actually said Mansell was the quickest team mate he ever had, which says something. Maybe it’s because Nige didn’t beat his team mate’s often enough?

wolfhound · 21 Aug 2020, 18:09 (Ref:3996914)

Quote:

Originally Posted by S griffin

I think Prost actually said Mansell was the quickest team mate he ever had, which says something. Maybe it’s because Nige didn’t beat his team mate’s often enough?

Could he have said that when Senna was still around???!!!!

**chunterer** · 21 Aug 2020, 23:41 (Ref:3996967)

Quote:

Originally Posted by cds_uk

Just had a quick flick through 84 and 85 Autocourse, Bellof outqualified him 11 to 8. Two each when they only had one turbo car between them in 85.

Ok thanks for following up. Not much in it. We can't ignore Brundle was in the acendency when he had the Dallas shunt.

Pethaps it was the Porsche WSC team where Bellof was most OTT!

S griffin · 22 Aug 2020, 08:46 (Ref:3997010)

Quote:

Originally Posted by wolfhound

Could he have said that when Senna was still around???!!!!

He said that on his Beyond the Grid podcast

wnut · 22 Aug 2020, 09:00 (Ref:3997015)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Was looking at this this morning, trying to work it out.

It is indeed qualifying only, and it is mostly based on a team mate comparison. Once you know that, you can explain some stuff easily (it's still wrong)

Top 5, we'll just ignore because it makes sense.

Nico Rosberg was team mate to Michael Schumacher. Schumacher was largely off the ball come his Mercedes years, so Rosberg gets some stats for that. And then he was teamed with Lewis, and whilst Lewis was faster, Rosberg wasn't that far off, so he gets some for that. The stats have no concept of Schumacher having good or bad years.

Vettel gets his for the massive gap he had to Webber. That gap was massive and such an anomaly that that's all it needs for him to go into the top 10. This also explains Leclerc - Vettel is rated stupidly high due to destroy Webber. Leclerc is now beating Vettel, therefore Leclerc is better. Again, the data has no concept of the good and bad years Vettel has.

Heikki teamed with Lewis, so he gets stats for not being terrible. He then teamed with drivers he largely beat, so no matter how bad they are, he gets stats for that. Trulli is similar - he's good, but being near Fernando sometimes threw his numbers up.

Basically, the system rates any driver high who managed to even get close to one of the greats in qualifying (Heikki and Rosberg) and then those drivers tend to have worse team mates when they were at other teams, so points for that too.

This is the motorsport equivalent of Villa beat Arsenal, Arsenal beat Man City, Man City beat Liverpool, so Villa are better than Liverpool. It doesn't take into account form over careers, which is why the 6-9 looks unreasonable. And Vettel in 10 is unreasonable as the gap to Webber is something we haven't really seen at any other point in history.

Then you go

Webber bt Rosberg 12 - 6 at Williams in 2006
Rosberg bt Hamilton 33 - 32 at Mercedes
Vettel bt Webber 70 - 23 at RBR
Leclerc bt Vettel 11 - 9 last year

Button was pretty ordinary in qualifying over his career, but stacked up well against Hamilton.

Prost was mega in his career if you remove Senna from his stats.

These figures make no sense at all.

**Adam43** · 22 Aug 2020, 14:45 (Ref:3997053)

Is the Rosberg Hamilton stat right? Wiki says 42-36 while at Merc.

These figures are far from perfect, especially to a subjective fan! But they don’t make no sense at all - Senna is quickest!

**Aysedasi** · 22 Aug 2020, 17:19 (Ref:3997101)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adam43

Senna is quickest!

Which we didn't really need an in-depth analysis to know....

**Adam43** · 22 Aug 2020, 17:22 (Ref:3997103)

Is this in-depth?

Armco Bender · 23 Aug 2020, 03:45 (Ref:3997174)

Jean-Pierre Jarier was still racing in '83,on his day he was unbeatable.....just a shame he didn't have many of those days...

S griffin · 23 Aug 2020, 09:22 (Ref:3997186)

Jumper Jarier was a little underrated IMHO. Even if he had his wild side, his natural talent was quite high. So much so that Ken Tyrrell felt he relied too much on it

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