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View Poll Results: Should the MC 12 be at Le Mans?
Yes, the MC12 deserves to be there 65 52.00%
No, Vitaphone should look for another car 60 48.00%
Voters: 125. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 26 Dec 2006, 11:30 (Ref:1799341)   #26
Hammerdown
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It would to me, having seen the shots of the original testing mule which was obviously an Enzo (even with the wheels sticking out of the rear bodywork!). I think the difference is that the Enzo clearly looks like a road car, whereas even the roadgoing MC12 clearly looks like a racing car. Though how you encapsulate this in the regulations is anybody's guess.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 12:55 (Ref:1799373)   #27
James C.
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In my opinion, the answer for this question is simple, Maserati did an illegal car so they can't race at Le Mans 24 hours

So Vitaphone should think to come in Le Mans with an other car (why not the Saleen like in 2004 )
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 13:17 (Ref:1799378)   #28
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Originally Posted by James C.
In my opinion, the answer for this question is simple, Maserati did an illegal car so they can't race at Le Mans 24 hours
no you are wrong
when the car was built and started testing it was very much legal as are the aston or the vette but then the aco and fia changed the rules and it became illegal
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 13:20 (Ref:1799383)   #29
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
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Originally Posted by Ebi
no you are wrong
when the car was built and started testing it was very much legal as are the aston or the vette but then the aco and fia changed the rules and it became illegal
Yes thats correct. You have to also ask yourself why the ACO and FIA changed the regulations. I dont want to start any conspiracy theories against Maserati here but it does seem rather convinent that once the rules were changed the Maserati was deemed illegall for the GT1 class.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 13:31 (Ref:1799386)   #30
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Originally Posted by Ebi
no you are wrong
when the car was built and started testing it was very much legal as are the aston or the vette but then the aco and fia changed the rules and it became illegal
Think the car was legal for FIA GT only, not for ACO racing
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 13:58 (Ref:1799396)   #31
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Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R
Yes thats correct. You have to also ask yourself why the ACO and FIA changed the regulations. I dont want to start any conspiracy theories against Maserati here but it does seem rather convinent that once the rules were changed the Maserati was deemed illegall for the GT1 class.
Ask Corvette or Aston Martin for that answer
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 15:18 (Ref:1799425)   #32
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Originally Posted by ger80
Think the car was legal for FIA GT only, not for ACO racing
Thats the whole point (again). The ACO has invited a team that runs a car that the ACO changed the rules on after it was built.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 15:41 (Ref:1799433)   #33
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Bramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridBramzel should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
It shouldn't be allowed to race in GT1 in my opinion, but the GTP class wouldn't be such a weird option imho. Everybody on the track will know it has to be compared to the Corvettes and Aston Martins, yet it won't run in the same class so it can't take away the class honours for them, thus pleasing Corvette and AM. However, they can still defeat them, so if they're faster than Corvette and AM Vitaphone can still be pleased.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 15:51 (Ref:1799441)   #34
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerdown
I think the difference is that the Enzo clearly looks like a road car, whereas even the roadgoing MC12 clearly looks like a racing car.
Too bad organizers can't use that excuse to prevent "homologation specials" from racing. It'd make for a very Montypythonesque conversation:

Organizer: So, this is the car you want to race, yes? It's a prototype, right?
Manufacturer: No, we want to race it as a GT.
Org: But it looks like a race car.
Man: We're building 25 road going models. So it's a road car.
Org: Then why does it look like a race car?
Man (starting to lose patience): It looks like a race car because we want race it.
Org: Aha! So it IS a race car!
Man (less patient): No, it's homologated as a road car!
Org: Then if it's a road car why must you race it?
Man (no patience left): Look, we just want to run the car in your bloody race! We did everything by the book like you demand! We weren't expecting this Spanish Inquisition!
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 16:42 (Ref:1799453)   #35
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the point is that the MC12 IS still wider than what the regulations say, the Saleen S7 IS a racecar but it's dimension are regular, the one on the Mc12 not...
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 17:27 (Ref:1799466)   #36
SALEEN S7R
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SALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridSALEEN S7R should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
Yeah the MC12 isnt legal now. It was when it was designed though. Or are you trying to tell me that a manufacturer such as Maserati designed and built a GT1 car to race that they knew would be outside the regulations? I'm sorry but that just doesent make sense, if you are building a GT1 car to race in sportscar racing then you surely make sure it fits the regulations. To suggest that Maserati knowingly set out to build a car outside the regulations is ludicrous. IMO.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 17:32 (Ref:1799468)   #37
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Quote:
Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R
Yeah the MC12 isnt legal now. It was when it was designed though. Or are you trying to tell me that a manufacturer such as Maserati designed and built a GT1 car to race that they knew would be outside the regulations? I'm sorry but that just doesent make sense, if you are building a GT1 car to race in sportscar racing then you surely make sure it fits the regulations. To suggest that Maserati knowingly set out to build a car outside the regulations is ludicrous. IMO.
That's true, but you do get warned in advance (in plenty of time) that regulations will be changing. I find it a little intriguing why Maserati didn't know this yet everyone else did...
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 18:22 (Ref:1799486)   #38
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That's true, but you do get warned in advance (in plenty of time) that regulations will be changing. I find it a little intriguing why Maserati didn't know this yet everyone else did...
The car legal for FIA GT supercar regulations. Nobody else build a car to this set of regulations, maybe because the regulations had been for FIA GT only and not for ACO racing. After nobody else started with a car for supercars regs, the FIA pushed the supercars into FIA GT1 regulations,
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 19:13 (Ref:1799495)   #39
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Quote:
Originally Posted by ger80
The car legal for FIA GT supercar regulations. Nobody else build a car to this set of regulations, maybe because the regulations had been for FIA GT only and not for ACO racing. After nobody else started with a car for supercars regs, the FIA pushed the supercars into FIA GT1 regulations,

So you are saying, it was never intended to be a GT car in any series. And that they never bothered to adjust the car (from the FIA variance)to comply with any GT spec rules?

Heck following that line of logic maybe the ACO should let the Veyron race in GT-1.

L.P.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 20:06 (Ref:1799513)   #40
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Originally Posted by HORNDAWG
So you are saying, it was never intended to be a GT car in any series. And that they never bothered to adjust the car (from the FIA variance)to comply with any GT spec rules?

Heck following that line of logic maybe the ACO should let the Veyron race in GT-1.

L.P.
No, it was designed for FIA GT Supercar regulations. But that regulations had been canceled before the MC12 was on the race track for a race the first time.
So Mr. Ratel had to do something with the car because he told Maserati that Supercars are allowed in FIA GT. So he together with the FIA found a way to let the MC12 run in GT1 (with the smaller wing and all the other stuff)
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 20:19 (Ref:1799518)   #41
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Yes they made some changes and got a variance on the chassis, but never made an attempt to rectify the differences, with the regular GT-1 rules. I realize FIA had an obligation to allow it to race, as it was built for a class that went defunct before it ever really became one! That however does not justify letting it run as an ACO sanctioned GT-1 IMO.

L.P.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 20:19 (Ref:1799519)   #42
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Originally Posted by HORNDAWG

Heck following that line of logic maybe the ACO should let the Veyron race in GT-1.

L.P.
That would be awesome to see.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 21:15 (Ref:1799540)   #43
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...is it possible that Maserati NEVER actually wanted the car to run at Le Mans in the first place ??
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 21:47 (Ref:1799554)   #44
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Sure its possible, but I find it highly unlikely. Especially when the car was developed by Maserati Corse, the Maserati factory basically. The car has been raced in every major sportscar series it can, why develop a GT1 car and then limit it to only a few big series when it could also run at Le Mans as well as the LMS and the ALMS (without penalties)? It simply isnt good business sense.
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Old 26 Dec 2006, 22:56 (Ref:1799589)   #45
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Let's remember briefly what happened during the time the MC12 was born. Ratel and ACO were thinking of making GT1 supercars the top class of unified rules, no doubt after some pressure from the Grand Makes including Maserati and Mr Todt himself. There were rules as work in progress and as ever FIAT attempted to preemt everybody by making a car on their own understanding of what the rules should be (a trick that they have repeated on the Punto S2000). For whatever reason ACO decided to stick with prototypes and Todt (together with FIA) pushed hard to get MC12 eligible somewhere. Thankfully Ratel did not give in and only let it run heavily restricted. In this form, and knowing its potential, it is very conceivable to see it in Mans, albeit in privateer capacity. If Maserati makes a U-turn and wants to take advantage of this in the future I am sure ACO will crucify them.
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 01:17 (Ref:1799657)   #46
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here in italy the question about legality or not of the mc12 was discussed a lot... and the point (at least at the start of 2005) was did somebody EVER had a copy of the Supercar Regulations? the answer is NO, the saleen would fit in that category and in my personal point of view it is really a racecar before a road car but at least it fits the famous 5*2 metres box so probably maserati would have wanted to fight protos as McLaren did in '95 but then there where other rules (and probably no manufacturer at all which helped a lot) so... let's invite some other great GT1 cars like Saleen (at least 3 from ORECA, Zakspeed and Racing Box), Astons (BMS, Phoenix and factory ones) and Chevys (GLPK, PSi, LAA, factory) and you'll have a very competitive field (with the one i have said you will have something like 12 + the JLOC Lambo which should be in the 24h just for it's sound and for it's looks)...
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 01:26 (Ref:1799667)   #47
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We weren't expecting this Spanish Inquisition!
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 16:10 (Ref:1799959)   #48
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The more, the merrier!

How valid are rules if they are constantly changing?
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 16:18 (Ref:1799962)   #49
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Just looking through the ACO GT1 regs and came across this. Not sure if the MC12 qualifies for this. Could it be used to grant an exception?

"Cars the overall width of which exceeds 200 cm
(rear view mirrors excluded) may be eligible if they
are "Full type CEE" homologated or the equivalent
for United States or Japan and produced at least
300 units per year. The bodywork elements that
exceed the maximum overall width (200 cm) must
keep the original shape and dimension (ACO
homologation form)."

Someone posted on another thread that the problem with the MC12's legality was not one of bodywork dimensions, rather drivetrain-related. Anyone know anything about this?
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Old 27 Dec 2006, 17:22 (Ref:1799981)   #50
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Hammerdown
Just looking through the ACO GT1 regs and came across this. Not sure if the MC12 qualifies for this. Could it be used to grant an exception?

"Cars the overall width of which exceeds 200 cm
(rear view mirrors excluded) may be eligible if they
are "Full type CEE" homologated or the equivalent
for United States or Japan and produced at least
300 units per year. The bodywork elements that
exceed the maximum overall width (200 cm) must
keep the original shape and dimension (ACO
homologation form)."

Someone posted on another thread that the problem with the MC12's legality was not one of bodywork dimensions, rather drivetrain-related. Anyone know anything about this?
i doubt there are 300 MC12 made each year, if ever.

The problem with the MC12 is its overal dims as everyone knows. Maserati have said in the past that too reduce the width, the drivetrain would need to be amended as well IIRC.

As for 'would Maserati build a car knowingly outside the rules', then yes if they think the rules would be modified to allow them to race. As Go_For_Pole has stated, FIAT have done this before, and will do it again.
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