"Course" Grade Scrapped?

[JimW]

Originally Posted by scorch

I'm interested in the "I'm the Obs so i'm in charge" personally i disagree.

On lots of occasions i have seen the obs first thing in the day to sign a sheet then not seen them all day, so how can that be in charge. there are even some posts i know of where the obs is on the opposite side of the track to the rest of us, so thats not really in charge either.

The way i see it is that we are all a team, just with different duties. if the observer wants me to do something that i see and unreasonable or even dangerious (that has happened), then i'm in charge and i will refuse (and have done).

I would not expect a obs to come and tell me how to to push a car or how to deal with an incident, same as i would not tell his how to report the incident.

Granted i accept that while he is in contact with race control he may have a better picture of the thoughts of the clerk, like he may be planning on putting out the red flag, but there is ways to suggest a course of action and the reasons rather than the size 12 boot of the "i'm in charge" approach.

Yes, of course, we are a team and one of the Observer's team roles is to be in charge. That means taking responsibility, directing (when necessary) the activities of other team members and guiding the team's approach.

Why do you feel entitled to change the long accepted and formally laid down duties of other members of the team? Being in charge is not a pride thing. Believe me, I enjoy the days I do as course marshal just as much s when I observe. Just like being on a rescue unit as crew chief as compared to crew member.

Regards

Jim

[scorch]

Yea sorry just to clarify a bit, i was talking about during the incident, after an incident at a de-brief or a comment on a card then thats fine.
I was objecting more to the "I was an incident marshall 25 years ago and now i'm an observer so you will do as i say..."

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by scorch

I was objecting more to the "I was an incident marshall 25 years ago and now i'm an observer so you will do as i say..."

ok........ so if you were an incident marshal 25 years ago, you have nothing to offer to current incident marshals?

That's a bit of a narrow minded outlook. We all have new things to learn and experience to pass on.

I've worked with a lot of Obs who I'd be happier having running an incident than some of the IOs I've worked with.

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by JimW

I suggest that we leave the detail of what is going to change (for Race from 1 January 2007) until a properly presented launch - real soon now.

At last.......a snippet of information! That's the nearest to a progress report I've seen on this project!

One thing I'll guarantee, whether the new grading scheme just maintains the status quo, changes everything, is better, worse, simpler, more complicated, etc., etc., there'll be a 20-page whingeing thread on ten-tenths, but life on the bank will go on as usual.

[EvilPumpkin]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

there'll be a 20-page whingeing thread on ten-tenths, but life on the bank will go on as usual.

Joined the BRSCC have we Dave?

[Stephen Green]

Thin ice possibly

[EvilPumpkin]

Already fallen through Steve so why bother trying to skate

[Nighthawk]

SCORCH..
I would not expect a obs to come and tell me how to to push a car or how to deal with an incident,
I feel this statement as insulting the Observer.. As all of us OBS have More than enough hands on expereance in dealing with incidents.
You saying I can not push a car?
Yes the safty of the team and individuals is of paramount concearn and you have the right to refuse but when things get to this stage (i'm in charge and i will refuse-and have done). then team organization becomes a shambles.
For a team to work then it must have structure…

[JimW]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

. . . life on the bank will go on as usual.

Oh, I hope we can aspire to do a bit better than that.

Good fun and enjoying racing will go on. Some people will continue to obsess about getting a signature and some will continue to marshal for 20 years and not bother what grade they are. Some people will do a good job and some . . .(won't)

Regards

Jim

[chezza]

Originally Posted by DarrellB

Correct me if i am wrong (everyone normally does) but don't IOs at Silverstone sign the upgrading cards for the incident team of the BRDCMC.

Not that I am aware. There are a couple of X IO's who can but not all that many.

[chezza]

Scorch does have a point.

Mainly at silverstone I would consider the IO to be in charge of the post, he has immediate contact with race control and will get an immediate response and is right there.

Take a post like Maggotts for example. The observer is on the inside, whereas the post is on the outside, therefore I cannot see how he could be in charge as from the other side of the circuit he cannot control the actions of the marshals on the ground so as to speak. I too have bene on posts where you have seen the observer first thing in the morning and last thing in the evening and thats about it...not really leading the team!

However, having been to many other circuits this season that work in different ways I have also been i places where the Observer is in control of the post and the IO is there as a back up role and to direct goings on during an incident, while the observer is talking to race control letting them know whats going on.

[JimW]

Originally Posted by JimW

. . . Some people will continue to obsess about getting a signature and some will continue to marshal for 20 years and not bother what grade they are. Some people will do a good job and some . . .(won't)

And no one should read any correlation between the first and second parts of those two separate sentences. So, for clarity, I am NOT equating being concened about grading with poor performance.

Regards

Jim

[Stephen Green]

I think we are talking about the differences between Silverstone and other circuits (this is NOT intended to be inflammatory).

Silverstone run a incident handling differently to most circuits. There the IO is very much in charge of the situation and, as Chezza rightly says, there are several posts where the Observer is not with the rest of his/her team. I think this is unfortunate as it does tend to split the team in two.

At most other circuits the Observer IS the Post Chief and has overal control/responsibilty for all marshals on his/her post. The IO is if you like, the Observers ears and eyes and the main difference is that the IO reports directly to the Observer who in turn reports to Race Control.

To be honest there are merits to both ways of doing it, and I think it's very much a case of what you are used to at your regular circuit.

As far as IO's signing upgrade cards, it is my understanding that only Examining Observers can sign cards that go back to the MSA for grade approval. I am sure Simon (National Grading Officer) will correct me if I am wrong on this one.

[chezza]

I'm certainly not going to take it as an inflammatory post.

Silverstone does work differently to everyone else and while it works very well as a system I wouldn't say it is THE system that everyone should work to. I enjoy going to other places and while I find it odd when people aren't in radio contact with RC I like seeing the different ways that places work and enjoy learning the different ways that other circuits do things.

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by chezza

Silverstone does work differently to everyone else and while it works very well as a system I wouldn't say it is THE system that everyone should work to. I enjoy going to other places and while I find it odd when people aren't in radio contact with RC I like seeing the different ways that places work and enjoy learning the different ways that other circuits do things.

There are more ways of running posts than "Silverstone vs everyone else in the MSA family". The Americans have a completely diferent grading structure, and as a marshal you would be trained to multi-task. But at the end of the day there is still a person in charge of the post, usually the most experienced, able to hold the team together, communicate with control (directly or indirectly), make and impliment decisions, and mentor and train team members on post.

As an aside, I have been called Observer, Post Chief, Turn Marshal, Captain , Senior, and Boss. They are all the same job!

To correct a comment from early in the thread, Observer on an oval - more correctly "course observer" - is a completely different job, and should be graded as such.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by theracegypsy

The Americans have a completely diferent grading structure, and as a marshal you would be trained to multi-task.

Which, IMHO, is the way to go - but I don't think it will ever be adopted on this side of the pond, plus, there's a few marshals who would refuse point-blank to do anything other than what they're used to!

I've done a couple of meetings in Canada, where they seem to do this "Multi-Tasking" and I have to say that personally I come away with a feeling that I have achieved more than when I'm just standing in my Ivory Tower ignoring my Marshals all day!

[CombeMarshal]

I just think we all need to use a little common sense, The Observer is the Boss, But IO's will Normally deal with the incident, But there is nothing wrong with input from anyone on post, even Newbie's can have good ideas!!

[The Fat Clerk]

All Marshals are equal, only some are more equal than others

[Old Adrian]

Being a trainee I dont care about what colour or grade badge I am as long as I do the job well and if I dont somebody tells me. Its not a race to see how fast you can upgrade, sometimes i have not bothered to ask for a signature as I have done nothing. I personelly have taken the whole year as a trainee and may put my completed card in at the end of the season, and i have done about 30 days this year and had enough signatures in july to upgrade.

[CombeMarshal]

RESPECT MY AUTORITAH!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

Which, IMHO, is the way to go - but I don't think it will ever be adopted on this side of the pond, plus, there's a few marshals who would refuse point-blank to do anything other than what they're used to!

I wouldn't refuse point blank, but if by 'multi-tasking' we mean everybody rotating around the duties on the post in the course of the day, I don't want to go down that road. That's the way it's commonly done for bikes - it's one of the reasons (there are other, more serious ones) why I've decided I no longer want to marshal bikes.

We have an excellent system which allows marshals to decide for themselves what they are best, or more comfortable, doing (not always the same thing, but one tends to lead to the other). Personally I hate flagging. It's a very important job which requires very high levels of concetratio & a methodical approach; when I'm flagging I'm always conscious that I'm not doing a good job & that I would be much better employed on incident - I'm sure that a lot of flaggies would express the opposite point of view.

The ACU doesn't have a grading system for bike marshals - you're just a 'Road Race Marshal', expected to do any duty; I believe this results in a much lower standard of marshalling - the old 'Jack of all trades, master of none' cliche springs to mind.

[Mark Mitchell]

I suppose it's what we've become accustomed to really.
If we'd started out by multi-tasking then it wouldn't be an issue.

I personally didn't much enjoy running from behind the armco to stricken cars but will do it occasionally (Like at Anglesey when numbers are down) and enjoy it - possibly because it's out of the norm for me, and I know I'll be back to "What I'm Good At" (Term "Good At" used very loosly!) next time out!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

If we'd started out by multi-tasking then it wouldn't be an issue.

My experience with bikes suggests that it would take a lot of the enjoyment out of marshalling. Lose that & there's no point in continuing.

[theracegypsy]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

I wouldn't refuse point blank, but if by 'multi-tasking' we mean everybody rotating around the duties on the post in the course of the day, I don't want to go down that road. That's the way it's commonly done for bikes - it's one of the reasons (there are other, more serious ones) why I've decided I no longer want to marshal bikes.

We have an excellent system which allows marshals to decide for themselves what they are best, or more comfortable, doing (not always the same thing, but one tends to lead to the other). Personally I hate flagging. It's a very important job which requires very high levels of concetratio & a methodical approach; when I'm flagging I'm always conscious that I'm not doing a good job & that I would be much better employed on incident - I'm sure that a lot of flaggies would express the opposite point of view.

.....

Under the American ( and Canadian is similar but not identical) system you would not be forced into doing tasks you did not want to, or were not cabable of - just look at how much incident work I can do with my titanium leg!

But as equivlent to our trainee grade you would be introduced to all the disciplines, so you have a good idea of what all the duties and responsibilities are. When you register for a meeting in North America ( equivalent to sending in a availability form) you normally state which duties you are NOT prepared to do, and this is taken into account when assignments are made. The Captain or Post Chief will then reinforce this at post briefings and develop a rota for the team which gives everyone a chance of doing what they want.

One think I insist on as a Captain, and so do most others, is that if you do a specific job for practice for a particular series you do the same job for the race. This gives consistancy across the meeting. It also usually means that, for instance, the most experienced flagger would blue flag the feature race, while doing some other role for the suport races.

[Woolley]

As an aside, I like to choose what duty I do at which meeting. There are some types of race I'd rather flag, and (I think) am quite good at (endurance). There are some I'd rather do incident for (quick fire clubbies). There are some circuits where I only want to go if I'm flagging (Silverstone) and others where I wouldn't be prepared to turn my back on the traffic for a yellow (Mallory). That's not a criticism of either circuit, just an observation of what I prefer.

So do I want to rotate around? No.

Course+incident? The difference (IMO) is that a course marshal has proved he can look after himself. An incident marshal has proved that he can look after others. That is a difference that is worth having identified.

Other grading queries? Why is it necessary to have any course experience in order to flag? Some people may not want to put themselves in the firing line. Some people can't manage to pick up a fire extinguisher. This person may be a brilliant flaggie but they're never going to be able to find out, even if they start - which they probably won't.