"Course" Grade Scrapped?

[KayBee]

Originally Posted by Alan Crook

I agree that there should be two different grades. Why not have Incident and Experienced Incident. This would keep it in line with the specialist grades.

But that would mean 30 signatures and a wait of three years before you could put your card in.

However, something I think should be looked at is a Specialist Flag marshal grade for those marshals who grade for flag using the Specialist route.

[Asp]

Originally Posted by Woolley

Other grading queries? Why is it necessary to have any course experience in order to flag? Some people may not want to put themselves in the firing line. Some people can't manage to pick up a fire extinguisher. This person may be a brilliant flaggie but they're never going to be able to find out, even if they start - which they probably won't.

Personally, I can see two reasons.
Firstly, it is necessary to have some experience of what happens at a race meeting to be able to flag. See experienced flaggies in action with the blue to properly understand what each flag means (as opposed to what they've seen at the GP for instance). If it's possible to allocate a first day marshal with an experienced flaggie, this might still be possible, but, is that always the case nowadays? You will always have some (most?) posts with a team of incident marshals of which a trainee can be a part, you might only have one flaggie.

Secondly, I'm sure most of us have seen the often mentioned clip of the flaggie miles away from any incident people who has a car resembling a barbeque pull off next to him - I seem to recall it being mentioned in an edition of The Marshal in the recent past.
Someone who has had the course marshal grade previously will be able to recall on that experience if that is required in consideration of all the circumstances to deal with any incident. A Trainee on the other hand might not.

[Shelagh]

In my view:

Observer: The person on post who communicates with race control as to what has happened (be it overtaking under yellows or mass carnage). Also responsible for reporting to CoC everything that needs a report (for everything from car problems, rule infringements to timings of what happens when a major incident recovery is underway).

Flag Marshal: Responsible for displaying pieces of cloth to drivers, some of which must be obeyed (eg yellow), some are advisory (eg blue) and, if the observer is anywhere near, reporting infringements (eg overtaking under yellows).

Incident Officer: Has overall control over the handling of an incident. In ideal world is a step back and directing the activity rather than getting involved, in real world is hands on and has to put up with Observer shouting their instructions (if Obs is anywhere near).

Incident: May be red badge or green badge but are the guys/gals who run out there and do the job. Some will be more experienced than others but, at the end of the day, they "do it" and it "gets done". Pretty sure that originally a "green" wasn't allowed to use a fire extinguisher but these days.....get real!

Depending on the circuit, the teams work in different ways. If you observe at somewhere like Oulton then you really are "in charge" of the whole team, whereas at Silverstone you are purely an "observer". (Just stating the facts rather than commenting on the circuits.)

I would also like to see all trainees getting some grounding in flagging. Firstly it gives them a feel for the ebb & flow of a race and an idea of gaps in traffic, which is very helpful when they have to decide when to go to attend an incident, secondly it gives them something to do rather than just stand around feeling bored because nothing is happening, thirdly they might well end up having to do it due to lack of numbers!

All the above are personal views but I'd like to hope that I've been around long enough to have a reasonable idea......

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Shelagh

I've been around long enough to have a reasonable idea......

You have my dear - now have a nice sit down and rest those weary feet!

[Shelagh]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

You have my dear - now have a nice sit down and rest those weary feet!

Just what are you implying??????

[Woolley]

Asp, lots of good points and I agree with them 90%. However, I'd take additional marshals who'll only flag, with the caveat that there needs to be a proper training programme - not always easy, but the main flag training is done on post anyway.

On your second point, just because there's a flaggie there doesn't mean it's someone who can pick up a bottle and run with it - at least some of them are flaggies because they can't do that anymore! And why fail to recruit a marshal who can add to the flag numbers because they're in some way feeble when it comes to pushing, lifting or firefighting?

I'd agree on the whole that there is a better chance of producing an excellent flag marshal if they have experience on the bank, but it's not a guarantee. IMO, we're wasting a possible resource of talent and numbers.

[Novice]

On page 6 of The Marshal magazine it says

"Race Marshals
There will be no major changes in grades held or their descriptions on the MSA registration cards for 2007."

However their are some changes to Rally Marshals grades and some plans to include Kart and Speed marshals later in 2007.

[Nighthawk]

Yes.. But if you read the first (Alternative Marshalling Methods) and ( MSA Marshals Registration & Grading Scheme) on page 6.
Then i would say that it looks like the MSA are looking to streamline the grading system

[Novice]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Yes.. But if you read the first (Alternative Marshalling Methods) and ( MSA Marshals Registration & Grading Scheme) on page 6.
Then i would say that it looks like the MSA are looking to streamline the grading system

Agreed.... But not in 2007. They have got to look for alternatives as we are an endangered species, verging on the brink of extinction.

[fazza]

Whats this Marshals Mag and where do you get it?

[Asp]

Originally Posted by fazza

Whats this Marshals Mag and where do you get it?

It's a publication produced by the Motorsport Safety Fund and is sent out to all MSA registered officials.
Until you get on the MSA register though, you can read at the MSF website.

[Mike Kelly 1]

I've got a brilliant idea about the grading system............LEAVE IT AS IT IS!!!

[cowchap]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly 1

I've got a brilliant idea about the grading system............LEAVE IT AS IT IS!!!

Sounds a bit too easy Mike

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mike Kelly 1

I've got a brilliant idea about the grading system............LEAVE IT AS IT IS!!!

'If it ain't broke, fix it until it is'!

[graham-ne]

while on the subject of gradeing why dose it take so bloody long for
a gradeing to come through from the MSA mine was sent of in june
early july and to date have still not got it back

so why dose it take so long

[Mike Kelly 1]

Originally Posted by Dave Brand

'If it ain't broke, fix it until it is'!

Too true Dave. I've never known any one who has had a problem with the grading structure.

[The STIG]

Ok, I now have a green card.

Now what do I do with it?

[Mike Kelly 1]

Work and reside in the USA ?

[Nighthawk]

Well personally I think the grading system needs revamping.
A few years ago BARC never recognized the grade of I/O (You where called an assistant Observer)
Silverstone, do they know what an Observer are - they seem to operate without one.
Then there are circuits that think you man a post with 4 Observers and a Black X then make the Senior Incident marshal in charge on other posts because there is no more Observers to go around.
Funny state of affairs but the MSA should do something to stop all this sort of thing happening

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Nighthawk

Funny state of affairs but the MSA should do something to stop all this sort of thing happening

None of the problems you mention is indicative of any deficiency in the grading system. Clubs' failure to allocate marshals properly (not a problem I've ever experienced), lack of people in certain grades, etc., is the fault of neither the grading system nor the MSA.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by JimW

It's tempting to dive in to the detail of this but ........
I'm not going to spoil it.

I suggest that we leave the detail of what is going to change (for Race from 1 January 2007) until a properly presented launch - real soon now.

According to "The Marshal" nothing will change for the 2007 season!

[Dave Brand]

Originally Posted by Mark Mitchell

According to "The Marshal" nothing will change for the 2007 season!

There is one change buried in there! The requirements for maintaining a grade are apparently now four, not five, meetings in a year & an 'advisory' training day per year but 'a minimum of one training day every two years is recommended', rather than the current requirement for two training days every three years.

Of course, if it's going to be as rigorously enforced as it currently is.......

[numbersix]

I'm in favour or retaining the two badge course/incident system. Like Dave says, it's a guide, if only a rough one, when pairing up duties on post.

I'm also the first to accept that we're all called coarse marshals at some point but this is to do with spelling, not grading

I hope two issues are addressed in the 'new' grading system, whenever it comes out. One is the 'signature lottery' where a trainee never knows whether their post will have an XO or not, plus the fact that one XO won't give a signature unless you've personally saved Alonso's life but only on a day with an R in it, whereas another will give a sig for turning up.

This leads to point two which is that this signature lottery I feel is annoying to new trainee marshals who want to get on. I think a certain number of attendance signatures should qualify as a grading signature, at least upto course grade. After that we either need some more XOs or allow ordinary Observers to fill in the gaps, after all, XOs are becoming rare beasts (sorry: 'Old Gentleman who cannot leap over the Armco' I believe is the new description ) Unless we change this we'll soon have the situation where the 'Old Gentleman who cannot leap over the Armco' are called course marshals.

[Clive]

It's not a question of "if it ain't broke don't fix it", isn't the idea to try and simplify and streamline the grading process because of a shortage of X Obs (this one can still leap over 3 layer Armco by the way, as can several others I can name! We just choose not to as we have 'people' who do that for us!). In the new scheme I believe an Incident Officer may also sign cards.

[Mark Mitchell]

Originally Posted by Clive

In the new scheme I believe an Incident Officer may also sign cards.

Could that not lead to conflict of opinion?

The IO sees fit to sign a card but the Observer doesn't?
Or Vice versa.