[BTCC] How to improve the BTCC 'product'

[Mike Harte]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I wasn't aware that any BTCC teams were producing TCR cars?

I think that Team Dynamics do, although they are not a current BTCC entrant.

[Sodemo]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Teams could design their own cars back then. A Team Dynamics Integra on the lift, there is some nice stuff on there: https://www.tegiwaimports.com/blog/?p=3920.

Those rear control arms are very far removed from the simple steel trailing arms of the original car, but they meet the letter of the S2000 rules in terms of pickup points and what not.

BTCC rule makers do not allow this anymore -- however TCR rule makers do, to a point, it's just that the TCR car has to be cheap enough to build to sell at the price cap unless you are willing to make a massive loss (and there's obviously balance-of-performance to reign in any cars that are too fast/too good, so there's no point in doing that).

I wonder why so few BTCC teams are mass-producing TCR cars for sale?! In theory, it should be a lucrative market.

The front subframe looks standard though. It was a pretty crude steel item on DC5s and EP3s (granted they were economy cars so you'd expect that), a far cry from a modern fabricated aluminium subframe that you find on something like an Alfa Romeo Giulia (it's almost like a small section of a typical aluminium spaceframe Ferrari chassis, very fancy!). The abandoned Golf GTI Mk8 TCR race car (seen here on a hoist) was intending to run the aluminium front MQB subframe (from the Audi A3) but with some reinforcement braces welded-in.

Should the BTCC, perhaps, seek to emulate the production-based character of TCR?! With standard pickup points, standard subframes and all those things?

Or do fans essentially not care whether or not the control arm pickup points are within 25mm of the standard road car and whether double wishbone has been substituted in place of the (typically) MacPherson strut front and multi-link rear of most hatchbacks respectively?

Personally, I think the btcc should have embraced TCR in some form. I much prefer their cars to ngtc. The only caveat would be that they should allow RWD in TCR.

[SSmith]

Originally Posted by AnnoyedMoose

I wasn't aware that any BTCC teams were producing TCR cars?

None of them "produce" TCR cars. Some, like Team Dynamics, have "run" TCR cars.

All TCR cars are "produced" ("built" is a far better word) either:

By the manufacturer (CUPRA, Hyundai, Audi Sport etc.) OR

By a manufacturer-nominated builder (e.g., JAS and Cyan Racing) OR

In some cases a sole privately-funded organisation (for example, all Alfa Romeo TCR cars were built by Romeo Ferraris, Tecnodom built the short-lived Fiat Tipo TCR, Vukovic built the Renault Megane TCR, Top Run built the recalcitrant Subaru WRX TCR)

Hence Audi Sport and CUPRA have sold hundreds of TCR cars to customers across the world

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by sceptic

BTCC does have standard subframes.

I mean standard as in the same as the road cars, not standard as in all the same as each other!

BTCC front end:


TCR front end:


The latter is based on the road car using the standard chassis rails and you built up a reinforced version of a standard (i.e., road car) front subframe underneath albeit with fabricated control arms.

To be clear, I'm not saying that BTCC diverging from road cars in this way is necessarily a problem. It's clearly a good ruleset where a diverse range of cars like the Infiniti Q50 and Subaru Levorg have previously been competitive, as well as the likes of a Toyota Avensis and Corolla and so on and so forth. It's straightforward for a private team to homologate nearly any body shape, using the standard subframes and often the TOCA engine and be competitive, which is great.

It would be nice if there were still more cars following the RWD option of course (Alfa Romeo Giulia and so on; I appreciate the Subaru was controversial as the rule makers had not considered that shorter flat-four and V4 engines would have a handling advantage by sitting further back in the chassis than inline-fours!), but oh well.

It would be nice if the numbers for Halford's to sponsor Team Dynamics stacked up in the way it does for NAPA to sponsor Motorbase, but obviously it doesn't anymore, so that's fine and the BTCC still has a full grid.

Originally Posted by SSmith

By a manufacturer-nominated builder (e.g., JAS and Cyan Racing) OR

There's no Ford Focus nominated team, so Motorbase could do that. West Surrey Racing could similarly build all the BMW 128Ti TCRs and so on. WSR could also do a Mini Cooper S 5-door TCR using the same running gear too.

Originally Posted by SSmith

Hence Audi Sport and CUPRA have sold hundreds of TCR cars to customers across the world

As you say it is a lucrative market, where you can potentially sell not just the minimum run of 10 cars but hundreds of cars even!

[redshoes]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

As you say it is a lucrative market, where you can potentially sell not just the minimum run of 10 cars but hundreds of cars even!

It's been a lucrative market for the like of Audi, Hyundai and JAS, where the cars are either built by the manufacturer themselves or by a third party with very close ties to the manufacturer.

For most of the private efforts - Fiat Tipo, Renault Megane, Subaru WRX, Ford Focus, Opel Astra - it's been far from lucrative.

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

There's no Ford Focus nominated team, so Motorbase could do that. West Surrey Racing could similarly build all the BMW 128Ti TCRs and so on. WSR could also do a Mini Cooper S 5-door TCR using the same running gear too.

They would need some level of manufacturer approval and/or support. BMW have previously indicated that they have no interest in TCR.

Anyhow, I feel we are getting very much off topic now. The title is 'How to improve the BTCC', and I'm not sure that have a couple of teams make cars for rival series does anything to address that.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by SSmith

None of them "produce" TCR cars. Some, like Team Dynamics, have "run" TCR cars.

I know. I was being sarcastic which didn't come over well I guess.

[crmalcolm]

One of the challenges with improving the product, is that others will think it makes things worse.

Allow the cream to rise to the top, people complain it's boring.
Implement measures to mix up results, people complain it is artificial.

[thetool]

But at the moment you maybe have the worst of both. It's a common complaint that it's been boring for the last couple of seasons, and that it's artificial because there's all sorts of undisclosed schenanigans with technical waivers behind the scenes.

It doesn't help that TOCA are very strict on keeping the technical bulletins and the information held within confidential, to the point where I don't think the general audience would even be aware of their existence. The way the BTCC is run these days makes it easy to harbour conspiracy theories.

[billy bleach]

What behind the scenes shenanigans? Where is the proof of this? Conspiracy theories indeed

[thetool]

Originally Posted by billy bleach

What behind the scenes shenanigans? Where is the proof of this? Conspiracy theories indeed

www.tocatechnical.co.uk

There's a reason you need a login. Of course most of the content is just boring logistics stuff, but not all of it.