|
||||||||||
|
||||||||||
9 May 2013, 09:14 (Ref:3244725) | #5576 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
Quote:
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 09:18 (Ref:3244728) | #5577 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 09:25 (Ref:3244731) | #5578 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 220
|
Quote:
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 09:30 (Ref:3244732) | #5579 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jul 2011
Posts: 1,648
|
Can't the ACO just hire an ex-driver and "confiscate" the factory cars at random times? They could hook up timing and data systems, tell the driver to go flat out and see what the car's real pace is, what the real top speed is, what the real torque is and how far they can go on fuel?
|
|
|
9 May 2013, 09:38 (Ref:3244734) | #5580 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
Quote:
Gregtrummer I like that idea, but teams would probably object to it, and we know they need the teams (manufacturers). Last edited by TF110; 9 May 2013 at 09:40. Reason: spelling |
||
|
9 May 2013, 09:47 (Ref:3244737) | #5581 | ||
Racer
Join Date: Jun 2011
Posts: 220
|
Quote:
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 09:54 (Ref:3244739) | #5582 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2011
Posts: 2,203
|
Quote:
As for the Toyota, regardless of where the balance really is, both parties are in continuous BoP 'tug of war' around ACO. Audi keeps saying that the diesel technology or the AWD technology is disadvantaged and even talk about switching to petrol power, while TMG's side claims the opposite, these 'efforts' seem to balance each other out more or less |
|||
|
9 May 2013, 10:34 (Ref:3244760) | #5583 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
|
Quote:
Last edited by sssssssss; 9 May 2013 at 10:41. |
||
|
9 May 2013, 10:40 (Ref:3244761) | #5584 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2003
Posts: 3,795
|
Financial might of Peugeot?
Audi had the bigger budget by far during the Peugeot years. Remember that most of the innovations on the second 908 were originally intended to be an update for the first 908 but Peugeot did not have the budget to do it. They raced a car that remained aerodynamically unchanged for four years while Audi built 1 1/2 brand new cars in the same timeframe. |
|
|
9 May 2013, 10:55 (Ref:3244766) | #5585 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Jun 2007
Posts: 972
|
as far as the money the teams invest in their programs is concerned, things are pretty simple: it's not audi's fault toyota don't want to supply their own lmp program with enough resources. you could blame audi for spending too much money when a budget cap would be implemented. atm, them spending the money they spend shows nothing else but caring about their image and really wanting to win.
why didn't toyota bring the subject up last year? why don't audi whine about the FWD flywheel hybrid solution and claim to change the rules in order to make it more powerful? again: you can't just pretend all these years in lmp1 don't count in any way experience-wise and efficiency-wise and just try to censor audi's efforts in order for your half-prepared project to keep up with them. |
|
|
9 May 2013, 11:06 (Ref:3244772) | #5586 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,873
|
Quote:
Why should one team get to decide how much to spend? Toyota are sending two hybrid powered cars across the globe, in a season which covers more miles on track than the Formula One season, and they're paying for 4 professional drivers full time, sometimes six. Yes, they're in a shoe-string, but only comparatively. Their opponent is Audi and Audi has decided how much money it takes to win Le Mans, by being the "hare" in terms of money spent. Toyota have to chase that. |
|||
|
9 May 2013, 11:12 (Ref:3244777) | #5587 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: May 2008
Posts: 6,654
|
Quote:
R10 ran last time in 2008. (old, so not counting) R15 in 2009. (1 New car) R15+ in 2010 (the 1/2 car) R18 in 2011 (1 new car) |
|||
__________________
Hvil i Fred Allan. (Rest in Peace Allan) |
9 May 2013, 12:57 (Ref:3244822) | #5588 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2009
Posts: 3,873
|
Audi's budget was bigger but that was because it was battling on two fronts, and I'd guess that money was coming in from NA as well.
Audi has been the only manufacturer to race regularly both sides of the pond in the same season. Since the turn of the millennium, it's just been them, Aston and now Rebellion, surely? Not sure what that says, but it's a point worth making. |
||
|
9 May 2013, 14:22 (Ref:3244849) | #5589 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,347
|
I think the ACO should leave things be and wait and see what LM brings - but FWIW I think Toyota have been caught out by the level of development that Audi has achieved with the R18 and it too late to do anything about it - so the only recourse is to cry foul and hope for the best.
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 15:59 (Ref:3244878) | #5590 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 8,999
|
Quote:
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 16:06 (Ref:3244884) | #5591 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,347
|
Yes, because Audi had the championship in the bag and they therefore deliberately or otherwise gave Toyota a false sense of security. At the end of the day they Toyota are using an opportunity with the ACO to peg back Audi. I hope they don't succeed as I don't believe they have done enough running in the new car for the ACO to properly Judge.
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 16:10 (Ref:3244890) | #5592 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2006
Posts: 11,696
|
Well the ACO have said nothing yet so lets see what they eventually say
|
||
|
9 May 2013, 21:49 (Ref:3245007) | #5593 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
Quote:
That, and all the work that Audi did to the R18 to improve the hybrid system, improve their tires and especially their cars' usage of its tires (Audi ran 2012 spec tires the entire weekend at Silverstone, but had no issues with double stinting and even considered a triple stint during the race) as far as grip and endurance, and using their own version of Toyota's endplate deal, it seems that the combined strategy shift and R&D work that Audi did over the winter may've caught Toyota off guard it's too late for them to make significant headway on their own for the rest of the WEC season, let alone before LM. But again, I do question why TMC seems to be shortchaning TMG quite a few things. If Toyota as a car company was serious about this IMO, why wouldn't they be throwing everything at it like with the GT-One program? |
|||
|
9 May 2013, 23:45 (Ref:3245039) | #5594 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 575
|
Quote:
I'm certainly not buying the crap that TMG want to do it on the cheap, I'd be willing to bet the boys at Cologne would give an arm and a leg for more budget but they have to make do with what they're given, and take it as a blessing, because it could really simple for the board to pull the rug out from under TMG's feet and leave it looking like Peugeot Sport was not so long ago. |
||
|
10 May 2013, 00:42 (Ref:3245049) | #5595 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Dec 2006
Posts: 8,827
|
TMC do seem to be sparing no expense for their NASCAR program compared to Ford and Chevrolet/GM. But then again, that culture is different. In the WEC, you have a factory team and maybe possibly a semi-works private team running year old cars/older spec cars that get updated to factory spec later on in the season.
In NASCAR, almost all teams are nominally semi-works private squads who bring their own cash to the show with sponsorship packages. Such as thing could help sportscar racing IMO, but there's not that many sponsors out there who want to the be the title sponsor for a factory team in a WC. I'd almost guess that world wide that Toyota gets more ROI on their NASCAR program than anything else as far as motorsport involvement and resultant press. |
||
|
10 May 2013, 03:35 (Ref:3245088) | #5596 | |
Veteran
Join Date: Sep 2010
Posts: 15,392
|
Toyota has its NA TRD doing Nascar. And they spend there what Toyota NA is willing to spend.
TMG is different. It almost serves as its own entity. But it doesn't have huge funds. On top of it F1 teams are using their facilities. So basically its a business first, you even see them say that they schedule around those F1 teams using their tunnels rigs etc. I might be in the minority but I think the 'development' of Audi is exaggerated by their gain in pace. I see more Audi turning up the engine and forgetting about efficiency with that being what the diesels could do if they just went for a 'Toyota' style in 2012. |
|
|
10 May 2013, 07:38 (Ref:3245177) | #5597 | |||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,132
|
Quote:
Audi have definitely been more aggressive in their development over the winter to extract performance out of the car, at the cost of increased fuel consumption, i.e. less fuel efficiency. They have also been able to make much better use of their tires, i.e. improve tire usage efficiency in a sense. In other words, they have been working hard to solve their 2012 weaknesses and produce a car capable to match (and exceed as it would seem) the performance of the Toyota's. I don't quite get it when you say that such development might be "exaggerated". Audi obviously have potential in their car, especially in their V6 TDI engine that, without any doubt, provides them with greater ability to extract additional performance from one year to the other. Are Toyota already at the limit with their engine development ? I do not know. What I know for a fact is that Audi have opted several years ago for an audacious engine configuration with outstanding development potential and which allows them to keep up with the development pace over several years. Is that "development exaggeration" ? I do not believe so. |
|||
__________________
In order to finish first, first you have to finish |
10 May 2013, 07:42 (Ref:3245181) | #5598 | ||
Team Crouton
20KPINAL
Join Date: Oct 2001
Posts: 39,570
|
Well I understood him.
I think you did too. |
||
|
10 May 2013, 08:20 (Ref:3245199) | #5599 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,132
|
|||
__________________
In order to finish first, first you have to finish |
10 May 2013, 08:45 (Ref:3245205) | #5600 | ||
Veteran
Join Date: Mar 2002
Posts: 4,347
|
I find it difficult to believe that Audi would have let Toyota win some of those races late last year if they could have just turned up the engine and gone faster. I would think this is all part of the development strides they have made.
I definitely think Toyota have been caught napping a little - they underestimated how much work Audi would put into it and how much progress they could make. Up until this week we have heard nothing much from Toyota about problems with the diesel equivelancy. |
||
|
|
|
Similar Threads | ||||
Thread | Thread Starter | Forum | Replies | Last Post |
[LM24] Toyota plans Le Mans return with hybrid! | Bentley03 | 24 Heures du Mans | 424 | 8 Nov 2010 19:56 |
[LM24] Best LMP1/LMP900/LMGTP Manufacturer of the '00s at Le Mans | Danny_GT2 | 24 Heures du Mans | 11 | 11 Aug 2009 18:26 |
[LM24] Acura Heading to Le Mans in 2008 and LMP1 in 2009 | Mal | 24 Heures du Mans | 45 | 11 Jul 2007 23:05 |
[LM24] When do you think Porsche will return to Le Mans? | H16 | 24 Heures du Mans | 3 | 14 Nov 2001 10:38 |