F1 in the early '60s

[JLelli]

Does anyone know what caused the CSI to implement the 1500cc formula for 1961, then suddenly announce the 3000cc formula for 1966? I find it odd that the governing body would implement a brand-new formula after only 4 seasons of another brand-new one (the decision to go the small-engine route was made in 1958).

[D-Type]

Tey worked in short cycles then. The original 4.5/1.5 litre F1 ran from 1947 to 1953, 7 years.
Then the 2.5 litre formula ran fron 1954 to 1957. They changed the rules extensively in 1958, shortening the races, banning 'dope' fuels and limiting the fuel to Avgas as it was the only form of petrol made to an international standard. This was effectively a new formula making the 250F Maserati obsolescent and causing Vanwall ansd BRM to almost redesign their engines. The shorter races and petrol opened the door to the lighter Cooper and Lotus cars.

The CSI had introduced the 1.5 litre Formula 2 in 1957 and found it attracted reasonable fields and provided food racing. They were concerned about the danger of rising speeds, remember this was in the aftermath of the 1955 Le Mans and 1957 Mille Miglia disasters. So they introduced the 1.5 litre formula.

But they found that sports cars were faster than Grand Prix cars, which devalued grand Prix racing, so they introduced the 3 litre formula. Some British manufacturers wanted 2 litres but the 3 litre lobby led by Ferrari won the day. The CSI also hoped that 3 litres would be big enough to induce the Americans to follow suit. This didn't work but we did at least see the Eagles in Formula 1. Then came the Cosworth engine and the 'kit car' era of Formula 1 really came of age.

[JLelli]

Thanks, that's exactly what I wanted to know.

[Vitesse]

The 1.5/4.5 Formula was originally mandated only until the end of 1949, but was quickly extended when it was realised that they'd got it right: the pre-War equivalency had been 3.0 supercharged and 4.5 unsupercharged, but - as they soon discovered - the blown cars had a massive advantage. That Formula was originally scheduled to last until the end of 1940 and would have been replaced by a 1.5 supercharged Formula in 1941.

The 1934 Formula (announced in 1932) was originally only supposed to last until 1936, but was extended by a year, since the CSI members couldn't agree on a new one. In the 1920s, the Formula changed every couple of years.

So, as D-Type says, the 3-litre F1 was actually very unusual in that it lasted a very long time.

[zefarelly]

Originally Posted by D-Type

it attracted reasonable fields and provided food racing. .

I still see a lot of this when we go out racing

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I still see a lot of this when we go out racing

Let me guess, featuring.....

Gerhard Burger

Jenson 'Chocolate' Button

Giancarlo Fishunchips

David Cooltart

Alex Tagliatelli

[macca]

And possibly

Johnny Sherbert

Jackie Stewpot

Giancarlo Spaghetti

Joe Fryup



Paul M

[R59]

1980's pay pilot Paolo Barilla's family business is pasta... So there!

Not to mention HEINZ Harald Frentzen.... somebody stop me!

[D-Type]

Whoops!

And there's also Roland Ratzenburger

[zefarelly]

oops . . .seems like we've taken this thread to a new intellectual level

[Steve Wilkinson]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

oops . . .seems like we've taken this thread to a new intellectual level

I suspect what you should have said was a new intellectual LOW!

Mia culpa!

[macca]

Sorry to drag your thread down, JLelli.

To get back to the subject; sports-prototypes were limited to 3-litres from 1958, at the same time as the changes in the 2.5-litre F1. However, somehow bigger cars slipped into Le Mans as GT cars or GT prototypes, such as 3.7 Astons, 5-litre Maseratis, and 4-litre Ferraris; and then mid-engined cars like the Lola-Ford, which gave birth to the GT40 and the Ford-Ferrari war; so the 1.5-litre F1s were left behind, despite the rapid pace of chassis and tyre development. The unlimited Group 7 sportscars and what became Can-Am racing were also much faster.

It was hoped by the British F1 teams that by going to 2-litres, with 250-280 bhp, they would have been quicker than the sports cars again; but the pace moved on so quickly with the 7-litre Fords etc that it wouldn't have worked (unless the FIA had been quicker in imposing capacity limits again, which came in for 1968).

Paul M

[krt917]

You're right - it probably wouldn't have worked! As it was, the 5-litre 917s were as or quicker at fast circuits than the 3-litre F1 cars in '70/'71 and I believe that Donohue's efforts in the 1973 917-30 Can-Am car were very close to Peterson's Lotus 72 qualifying laps at a couple of circuits.

[Pete Fenelon]

> Some British manufacturers wanted 2 litres but the 3 litre lobby led by Ferrari won the day

One version I've heard a couple of times is that the British wanted 2 litres, so they could stretch the Climax and BRM engines to suit. They figured that going to three litres wouldn't be acceptable, because it'd be playing straight into Ferrari's hands, 2.5l was the previous formula and they wouldn't go back to that, and the gap between 1.5l and 3.0l would be too wide for the FIA to stomach - so they'd suggest 3.0l and "allow themselves to be argued down" to 2.0.

Unfortunately for Rudd, Chapman et al they said "let's go to 3.0l" and it went through on the nod...

[ensign14]

Originally Posted by zefarelly

I still see a lot of this when we go out racing

Alex Sausage Roll

Roy Saveloyri

Friedegger Engines

Al Pease Pudding

Geo Ham

Calvin Fish

[davemorganfan]

Jacky Leeks

Huub Rottengateau

Antonio Pizzania

Paul Radishich

[Corktree]

Originally Posted by JLelli

Does anyone know what caused the CSI to implement the 1500cc formula for 1961, then suddenly announce the 3000cc formula for 1966? I find it odd that the governing body would implement a brand-new formula after only 4 seasons of another brand-new one (the decision to go the small-engine route was made in 1958).

A few clarifications.

The 1.5-litre CSI F2 took effect in 1957, being announced in 1956.

The 1.5-litre CSI Twiddler Formula was announced in October 1958 and the 3.0-litre/1.5-litre formula announced in November 1963, scarcely a "sudden" change.

The CSI Blazers had discussions with the various teams at the 1963 GP de Monaco, but it is generally unknown if these chats actually had any real effect on the final decision, which apparently surprised OMF as much as anyone. What may have been an unusual clarity of vision by the CSI Blazers, they might have realized that, indeed, the Times Were Changing. Which is to say that we really don't have all that much of a clue as to why the CSI did what it did, except that several of the organizing clubs were concerned that sports cars were now beginning to challenge the times of the grand prix cars on more than a few circuits. However, it is worth keeping in mind that even a blind hog with hay fever finds an acorn.....

Often overlooked in all this is that AAA Contest Board or the USAC Board of Directors would align itself with the International Formula only to back off for various reasons in the case of the latter.

The incredible stupidity of the CSI, FISA, and FIA on the sports car formulae is a chronicle that need not be related here, but suffice it to say that the CSI was perfectly capable of snatching defeat from the jaws of victory with a stunning regularity, a trait which the current generation of Blazers have continued to demonstrate with equal ability.

[bauble]

Why has no one mentioned the Intercontinental Formula?
Is John Turner asleep?

[John Turner]

Well, it wasn't really F1 but an alternative formula created in an attempt to extend the lives of the pre 1.5 cars, and ultimately a failure! You could start a new thread on the Intercontinental formula, Bob.