[WEC] LMP Future Regulations (was Le Mans EVO rules - now hypercar rules)

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Well, no. Hypercar determination to pretend it's related to a road car. It doesn't take a fine eye for detail to look at LMP styles and Hypercar styles and say "Well these aren't the the same thing". Similar differences with hybrid systems as well.

Huh? Which LMH are you talking about in particular? The ByKolles DPi, the TS050 DPi or the Glickenhaus, which is really an LMP car with an Acura DPi wing between the front fenders and an unusual sidepod/rear wing situation? No-one's even pretending their car is remotely road-car like. It's not even what many hoped DPi 2.0 would be like.

[Spyderman]

Originally Posted by PascaLM

This article shows that I was wrong, fortunately.

Good to read!

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Huh? Which LMH are you talking about in particular? The ByKolles DPi, the TS050 DPi or the Glickenhaus, which is really an LMP car with an Acura DPi wing between the front fenders and an unusual sidepod/rear wing situation? No-one's even pretending their car is remotely road-car like. It's not even what many hoped DPi 2.0 would be like.

Toyota literally drove a prototype of the road car around Le Mans, lol.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by GregoryDG

With Peugeot, Toyota and Audi confirmed, Honda and Porsche very likely, and without forgetting Alpine, Glickenhaus and ByKolles, is it too early to call this a golden era?

porsche said anything yet as far I know, like any current dpi manufacturers (hpd, GM, mazda/multimatic) still confirmed lmdh programs

[DistortedSmile]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Toyota literally drove a prototype of the road car around Le Mans, lol.

I think his point is that from what we've seen the LMH cars seem like they'll look a lot more like an LMP than a hypercar.



This is basically pure prototype, whereas the ACO probably intended them to look more like a modern version of a 90s GT1 car

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

I think his point is that from what we've seen the LMH cars seem like they'll look a lot more like an LMP than a hypercar.



This is basically pure prototype, whereas the ACO probably intended them to look more like a modern version of a 90s GT1 car

The LMH rules dictate how LMH cars will look.
Regarding Audi read very carefully. Sticking an Audi GT3 engine into an spec LMHDh chassis with a spec 40 HP Hybrid system that costs $350K is a bit different than previous Audi Factory LMP1 efforts.
Also note "customer racing".
BOP'ing LMH to LMDh will be interesting.
2023 is a long way's away.
Do you think under BOP IMSA will allow an LMH to win at Daytona?
How about under BOP do you think The ACO will allow an LMDh to win
at Le Mans?

[canaglia]

I don't think that audi will use the V10 5.2L for the lmdh car; that engine is too long, lacks of low-mid torque and should rev at about 9000rpm to reach >600hp.
I think that audi will follow HPD example and will tune for racing a road derivated audi/VW V6 turbo engine.
And agree about the "series contextualization" infact to me audi will focus as a work effort only at le mans letting backed customers team running in IMSA and WEC, even if to me it's really unlikely that a lmdh could beat work and more complex hybrid cars like toyota or peugeot purposely made on LMH rules.

[chernaudi]

Depends on who writes the checks (cough, cough, lines the series owners' pockets) like so often happens, plus American vs French nationalistic pride. If such hubris and rivalry can be set aside, then BOP either way hopefully won't be an issue.

I have a hard time seeing Audi or Porsche just taking a stock LMP2, jamming a GT3 spec engine in it (especially given that Porsche only has boxer 6s as GT3 engines), adding "factory" bodywork and calling it job done.

Either they'll go the Hypercar route (which is DPI on steroids) or there may be further convergence on LMP1 regs concerning LMDH and LMH. And if anyone is pressing for that, it'd probably be Audi Sport and/or Porsche Motorsport.

I mean, so far the Toyota LMH looks like a TS050 widened to 2000mm and fitted with an ACO spec sized cockpit. I do think that's the way LMDH and LMH will go in LMP1 most likely as far as any convergence.

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Depends on who writes the checks (cough, cough, lines the series owners' pockets) like so often happens, plus American vs French nationalistic pride. If such hubris and rivalry can be set aside, then BOP either way hopefully won't be an issue.

I have a hard time seeing Audi or Porsche just taking a stock LMP2, jamming a GT3 spec engine in it (especially given that Porsche only has boxer 6s as GT3 engines), adding "factory" bodywork and calling it job done.

Either they'll go the Hypercar route (which is DPI on steroids) or there may be further convergence on LMP1 regs concerning LMDH and LMH. And if anyone is pressing for that, it'd probably be Audi Sport and/or Porsche Motorsport.

I mean, so far the Toyota LMH looks like a TS050 widened to 2000mm and fitted with an ACO spec sized cockpit. I do think that's the way LMDH and LMH will go in LMP1 most likely as far as any convergence.

Sadly I do think that Audi is willing to do exactly that. Stuff their engine into an LMDh, sell customers a body kit and if customers don't get then job done blame them. I agree that it would be strange if Porsche or Ferrari did that but these days strange things do happen. A lot of people aren't reading the entire Audi PR release and think this is a "Return of Audi Factory Racing To Le Mans". I don't believe it is.

[WyldStallion]

The GT3 business model for Audi has worked perfectly. This is a move to replicate that in prototypes. I like the idea of using the GT3 engine. It sounds great first of all. Hopefully the body style will resemble the R8 LMS. I always liked the Audi R8 GT3.

I am getting weary that right off the bat the hypercars are starting to look more like the LMP1s than the supercars. I look forward to seeing the Toyota. I liked the initial renderings of the GR Super sport a lot. If we can get that with a LMP rear wing then that would work.

[chernaudi]

If Audi Sport are serious about winning LM again, they basically need at least a semi-proprietary car (not proprietary like their older LM cars dating back to the R8), but at least something that's customer friendly. Granted, the R8 was run with customers (albeit with a lot of factory support from Audi).


I'm more inclined to believe that Audi would have a proprietary or quasi-proprietary car that's as Audi as possible, while still being able to be run by a customer (like the R8).



You also have to remember that the Porsche RS Spyder was essentially proprietary to Porsche Motorsport, but was intended to be a customer car (and might have been more so if not for it's insane for LMP2 MSRP of 1.5 million USD).


Not to mention that if the Audi R10 ran the R8's engine instead of a diesel and even if the Porsche 919 and Toyota TS050 weren't hybrids, they wouldn't be a ton more complex than a current LMP2 car--which you can see the R10's and Peugeot 908's influence there (load-bearing monocoque, torsion bar springs, modular front and rear clips, etc).

[Mike E]

Regarding any impact of the Audi decision on Porsche's plans, it looks like there will be a few VW Group motorsport people knocking about with time on their hands in the near future.

https://sportscar365.com/industry/vo...ts-activities/

[canaglia]

I am not that sure audi is going to drop the 5.2L V10 in the lmdh, infact the only dpi that actually used a gt3 engine was the nissan dpi that suffered a lot of technical issues because of that (overheating and failed engines mainly due lack of room for suitable radiators, ridiculous fuel consumes requiring >80L fuel tank, overweighting car etc...).
I am not even sure lmp2 chassis are compatible with a so long engine without big changes on rear subframe. If HPD was able to tune a competitive turbo V6 starting from a lame and old street V6, think audi could do much better.
Anyway as said, because of many technical and "political" reasons, I think that audi is well aware that a lmdh won't be realistically able to compete against LMH, so I don't expect a work effort in WEC, maybe just at le mans.
Likely there will be some kind of backed team or teams like was champion racing in ALMS.

[chernaudi]

Which is why I think that either Audi (and maybe Porsche and others) will go to LMH or LMH and LMDH are closer on convergence than we think or are being lead on to. LMH's specs are basically fixed (at least the major points, if not everything). LMDH/DPI gen 2 isn't yet to my knowledge (as a far as being on the outside looking in).

And I have no doubt that Audi and Porsche are aware of what Toyota is up to and I do doubt that the ACO give that much of a damn about privateers (or even IMSA now for that matter), unless they're running a customer program based on a factory car.

[canaglia]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Which is why I think that either Audi (and maybe Porsche and others) will go to LMH or LMH or LMDH are closer on convergence than we think or are being lead on to.



And I have no doubt that Audi and Porsche are aware of what Toyota is up to and I do doubt that the ACO give that much of a damn about privateers (or even IMSA now for that matter), unless they're running a customer program based on a factory car.

I don't think will happen, bop or not bop, convergence or not, toyota (the actual most influent ACO manufacturer/partner) and peugeot are going to spend tons of mln $ to design and produce their bespoke chassis, ICE, hybrid system etc... to compete in LMH ruleset, you just can't expect these cars will be bopped down to let a much cheaper "audi lmp2+" stay in the same league. That's my opinion of course.
But if a cheaper lmdh will be able to beat corporations big toys, the LMH class in its concept is basically a huge failure.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

Toyota literally drove a prototype of the road car around Le Mans, lol.

Which bares ZERO resemblance to the actual LMH chassis, that seems to be TS050 in camo, possibly with a nosejob. And there is no evidence it was widened to 2000mm either.

[chernaudi]

They may was well have widened the actual car to 2000mm, given that they do need a new tub (even if inspired by the TS050) due to new cockpit dimensions dictated by the ACO.

[TF110]

I suspect that the TS050 chassis/monocoque would not be suitable for hypercar because of the change in hybrid rules. If Bykolles are making a brand new chassis you can be sure someone like Toyota is

[carbsmith]

Originally Posted by DistortedSmile

This is basically pure prototype, whereas the ACO probably intended them to look more like a modern version of a 90s GT1 car

When your target road cars are things like the Valkyrie I have no idea where you draw the line. As soon as you put the safety standards for a non-road based car into play they're going to look pretty much like that, it's miles closer to a 90s GT1 car (in that it could at least hang out with a TS020 and GT1-98) than what it's replacing.


The goal was never really to have something like a McLaren F1, just the race cars barely pretending to not be Group C cars.

[Akrapovic]

Originally Posted by Pandamasque

Which bares ZERO resemblance to the actual LMH chassis, that seems to be TS050 in camo, possibly with a nosejob. And there is no evidence it was widened to 2000mm either.

We haven't seen the LMH fully, but yeah I'm sure you know the width of the vehicle. Anyway..

--

The whole approach the ACO has taken has been a bit of a cluster. Which...is kinda on form.

So how about we just take DPi2.0, allow customer chassis, keep the speeds up at where they are so we don't need to peg LMP2 back to the problem zone (have the ACO forgotten why they sped them up in the first place?) and job done.

[chernaudi]

Or find a middle ground between LMH and LMDH, as far as cheaper/simpler hybrid systems (or having them as an option), no reliance on "spec" chassis (teams can build their own, go DPI or go full on customer), and aim for 2007 or 2008 pace for the top class as far as race pace?

However, that'd require the ACO and IMSA compromising and both swallowing some pride. And just because LMP1 is a mess right now and DPI is suffering from shrinking numbers (neither helped though by the rules being in flux), doesn't mean that nationalistic pride or simple "mine is bigger than yours" hubris will take a back seat totally.

Also goes to show that Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport quitting LMP1 because it got too expensive for its own good as far as ROI outside of Le Mans, may not have taught the ACO and IMSA very much.

Can we have the 2008 or earlier ACO and even IMSA leadership back calling the shots?

And as far as GTE cars go vs prototypes, if need be nerf the GTE cars. They're making 100-150 hp less than GT1s and still run steel brakes and narrower tires/wheels but are running GT1 laptimes (nothing against evolution, but if you're going to slow down LMP1's successor and LMP2/DPI, doesn't it stand to reason that the GTs should be slowed by a similar percentage?).

[Napolis]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

Or find a middle ground between LMH and LMDH, as far as cheaper/simpler hybrid systems (or having them as an option), no reliance on "spec" chassis (teams can build their own, go DPI or go full on customer), and aim for 2007 or 2008 pace for the top class as far as race pace?

However, that'd require the ACO and IMSA compromising and both swallowing some pride. And just because LMP1 is a mess right now and DPI is suffering from shrinking numbers (neither helped though by the rules being in flux), doesn't mean that nationalistic pride or simple "mine is bigger than yours" hubris will take a back seat totally.

Also goes to show that Audi Sport and Porsche Motorsport quitting LMP1 because it got too expensive for its own good as far as ROI outside of Le Mans, may not have taught the ACO and IMSA very much.

Can we have the 2008 or earlier ACO and even IMSA leadership back calling the shots?

And as far as GTE cars go vs prototypes, if need be nerf the GTE cars. They're making 100-150 hp less than GT1s and still run steel brakes and narrower tires/wheels but are running GT1 laptimes (nothing against evolution, but if you're going to slow down LMP1's successor and LMP2/DPI, doesn't it stand to reason that the GTs should be slowed by a similar percentage?).

GTE is dead. We believe it will become GT3 in 2022.

[Pandamasque]

Originally Posted by chernaudi

And as far as GTE cars go vs prototypes, if need be nerf the GTE cars. They're making 100-150 hp less than GT1s and still run steel brakes and narrower tires/wheels but are running GT1 laptimes (nothing against evolution, but if you're going to slow down LMP1's successor and LMP2/DPI, doesn't it stand to reason that the GTs should be slowed by a similar percentage?).

The whole move to give GTE more aero freedom a few years ago seemed daft then and still does.

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

We haven't seen the LMH fully, but yeah I'm sure you know the width of the vehicle. Anyway..

I never claimed to know one way or the other, unlike some people so adamant that the car was widened.

Originally Posted by carbsmith

Did the BHH get smaller or the cockpit higher?

[carbsmith]

To an extent both. The fin doesn't need to be a specific regulation size anymore though, as long as it works.

With that mild of a hybrid LMDh is never going to be more than at most marginally faster than whatever LMP2 it's based on with the current power:weight combo in those cars either so pegging back LMP2 (like has already happened in IMSA) is always going to be on the menu.

[broadrun96]

Everyone posting here needs to stop, read a very simple story and then stop with the hopes and dreams nonsense about what LMH(ypercar) and LMDh(ybrid) will be. There's NO, ZERO, NONE AT ALL chance of LMDh becoming some class beyond DPi 2.0, any idea to the contrary is either ill-informed, wishful, or intentionally contrarian. They have given teams the outline and given away most of the info publicly, there's not much more left to fill in the details.

http://www.dailysportscar.com/2020/1...t-is-lmdh.html


The only way the LMDh cars will have ANY chance at LM is through old school out lasting the LMH guys and hoping things break or traffic. The LMH cars will probably cost more to build than LMDh will cost to run the entire season. The engines already have a known power target in both groups and LMH has had theirs cut already, making SCG's Pipo engine become a bit of expense they could have used elsewhere with the Alfa originally considered being cheaper. But they've moved on and hold only a sight grudge, understandably. The new Peugeot will push that LMH advantage even further, but that's no great news to anyone nor does it need to be debated as history has shown that. Great we all know including teams entered, outlast PSA's board and you'll have a chance.

The LMH guys are screwed in return when it comes to running in IMSA, no guarantee has been made yet they can run, IMSA is interested and will consider it. Meaning they want BOP to favor those invested in running their full season, which is fair.