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Old 18 Sep 2019, 08:04 (Ref:3928639)   #6631
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Up to this point I think secrecy's been wise - I mean why would you tell more to the competitors than needed - but I don't think there will be need for any of such when it becomes a bop class. The hybrid on the Hypercar will be for public relations reasons more than anything as there won't be any advantage to it
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Old 18 Sep 2019, 13:51 (Ref:3928691)   #6632
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Up to this point I think secrecy's been wise - I mean why would you tell more to the competitors than needed - but I don't think there will be need for any of such when it becomes a bop class. The hybrid on the Hypercar will be for public relations reasons more than anything as there won't be any advantage to it
Not entirely true, the advantages becomes minimal, but some are still to be found.
If the Hybrid system is deployed on the front wheels, giving the car periodical four wheel drive, it can out accelerate its competitors and slower GT's.

Even though two LMPs run the same lap times (essentially BOP'ed), the Hybrid would in the race still have an upper hand as it would be able to get through traffic quicker.

So an advantage is still there, but hardly worth much development into further efficiency.
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 12:49 (Ref:3928877)   #6633
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Not entirely true, the advantages becomes minimal, but some are still to be found.
If the Hybrid system is deployed on the front wheels, giving the car periodical four wheel drive, it can out accelerate its competitors and slower GT's.

Even though two LMPs run the same lap times (essentially BOP'ed), the Hybrid would in the race still have an upper hand as it would be able to get through traffic quicker.

So an advantage is still there, but hardly worth much development into further efficiency.
But do you really believe that the competitors (read: Aston Martin in their hybridless hybrid road car) would just stand by and let them have such advantage? Now that the mathematical formulas have been killed off and BoP will be set by parameters of "whatever we come up with", the ACO won't stop at identical laptimes, but probably put Toyota a little bit behind in overall power/weight levels in order to compensate for the hybrid boost. Toyota can still brag about the power of hybrid when it's initialized, but in overall pace terms it actually won't matter at all (except in very overtaking occasions maybe). I suspect this will result in bopped Astons getting poles more of the time, but Toyota coming back in race form
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 13:02 (Ref:3928880)   #6634
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But do you really believe that the competitors (read: Aston Martin in their hybridless hybrid road car) would just stand by and let them have such advantage? Now that the mathematical formulas have been killed off and BoP will be set by parameters of "whatever we come up with", the ACO won't stop at identical laptimes, but probably put Toyota a little bit behind in overall power/weight levels in order to compensate for the hybrid boost. Toyota can still brag about the power of hybrid when it's initialized, but in overall pace terms it actually won't matter at all (except in very overtaking occasions maybe). I suspect this will result in bopped Astons getting poles more of the time, but Toyota coming back in race form
Honestly I have no idea, as I know nothing about how ACO/FIA actually set the BoP. I agree that it is most likely that there will be a lot of politics involved for this aspect. However I do not expect that a hybrid manufacture would allow themselves to be slower on a qualifying lap because of more advanced tech.
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 13:12 (Ref:3928885)   #6635
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Honestly I have no idea, as I know nothing about how ACO/FIA actually set the BoP. I agree that it is most likely that there will be a lot of politics involved for this aspect. However I do not expect that a hybrid manufacture would allow themselves to be slower on a qualifying lap because of more advanced tech.
Other than odd political "turn of favor" to be served on occasion, I don't think they have any saying it. It is the price they pay for agreeing to run in modern BoP formula and getting more brands in. Aston Martin will have inferior tech but they will want "equal chance at everything" just as they do in GTE, and that means poles at Le Mans as well. And if Toyota has superior traffic capability that will have to be counter-compensated somehow, which will surely be in reduced overall power levels at circuit like Le Mans. Now, I don't think higher straight line speed on AMR is the only answer as the nonhybrid P1 privateers already have that against TS050 and it doesn't really affect anything. Maybe on chicane-less Mulsanne it would but not now...
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 20:47 (Ref:3928964)   #6636
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As far as I know hybrid boost is limited at speeds over 120 kph in the hypercar regs. This is already something that negates a little of the benefit in traffic.
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Old 19 Sep 2019, 22:01 (Ref:3928982)   #6637
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As far as I know hybrid boost is limited at speeds over 120 kph in the hypercar regs. This is already something that negates a little of the benefit in traffic.
Right, and in the wet. We've seen this before somewhat in 2012 and 2013 with the TS030 RWD kers vs Audi FWD above 120kmh. Maybe a little different because they both were hybrids compared to next season.
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Old 21 Sep 2019, 23:31 (Ref:3929300)   #6638
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Right, and in the wet. We've seen this before somewhat in 2012 and 2013 with the TS030 RWD kers vs Audi FWD above 120kmh. Maybe a little different because they both were hybrids compared to next season.
We no longer see any Hybrid advantage especially with BOP, weight and complexity. Our TTV6 will easily make maximum allowed HP.
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Old 22 Sep 2019, 11:30 (Ref:3929391)   #6639
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Right, as I've said hybrid will become entirely about PR. As will all other tech factors, nothing else. Even the ex-P1 VAG teams in Formula E with their cheap spec cars can boast more about their technology having bigger impact in race outcomes. The most WEC teams can say is the usual line in BoP line of work, which is "we have real variety in our class and manufacturers have come up with different answers to the same question" etc

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Old 22 Sep 2019, 20:30 (Ref:3929519)   #6640
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Depending on how much the hybrid is limited there's still advantages to it. The total power is down but how much storage is allowed and how much or how often can they deploy? That's the only thing that I haven't seen mentioned. Right now Toyota has 8mj per lap at Le Mans, what is the new total?
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Old 22 Sep 2019, 22:14 (Ref:3929545)   #6641
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Based on the power output limits and such that I've read, I'm probably guessing roughly 3.5MJ like in 2013.
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Old 23 Sep 2019, 09:09 (Ref:3929615)   #6642
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Well that's how much it should be, we'll see when it next gets to race
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Old 23 Sep 2019, 11:10 (Ref:3929642)   #6643
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Well that's how much it should be, we'll see when it next gets to race
How much it should be...?
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Old 23 Sep 2019, 18:37 (Ref:3929739)   #6644
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It should be unlimited imo with a cap on the power total released at a time. So if the rules say 750hp, limit the hybrid output to 150hp with 600hp from the ice engine. I feel the hybrid should be allowed to release said 150hp as much as possible from their 120kmh and upwards. There should be no 3.5mj per lap limit, not even 8mj per lap limit. Why? If it proves too much, drop the output to 100hp or better yet, up the power of non-hybrids. These artificial limits look weird on paper and not even well-understood.
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Old 24 Sep 2019, 06:22 (Ref:3929824)   #6645
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GasperG has a lot of promise if they can keep it on the circuit!
One thing Toyota could do is make a production version of GR Super Sport that will be faster around the race track than a race version. Now that would be a true demonstration of Technology and mockery of ACO rules
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