combined grids - the way forward?

[simon drabble]

It seems that the Snetterton 3 hour/GTSCC combined grid was a successful marriage and there doesnt seem to be any grumbles about Carol combining with PA - so is this the future and will the entry fees benefit as a result of more full grids?

Sympathetically chosen it does seem to be able to provide to us what we want so my marker goes on it being a pragmatic solution to there being too many series

[Alan Morgan]

As Chris Sharples said in the latest HSCC magazine, if combining compatible grids at the bigger circuits keeps entry fees down then it's got to be a good idea. It's something we tried successfully in FF2000 recently to get a decent grid at Silverstone GP and most people thoroughly enjoyed racing against some new faces.

[Mike Bell]

Yes, I agree, and the combined 3hr grid last weekend at Snetterton, plus the FF2000s at Silverstone Alan mentions are proof of how well it can work. I hesitate to be quite so enthusiastic about the combination of Carol's Pre '63 and Peter auto Pre '66 cars, as they normally run on different tyres. (L's versus ZZs.) I believe that Pre '63 cars have their own podium, though, so keeping it fair, or they can fit Avons and move to the other category....

MRL have combined their Gp1/2/A Touring Cars with other organisers and are doing so again for Silverstone Classic. I'm sure there are many other examples as well, and hopefully organisers will continue to work together for the good of us competitors, as well as themselves!

[Robert Farrell]

" seems that the Snetterton 3 hour/GTSCC combined grid was a successful marriage"
A great idea. But.
We didn`t enter due to the need for L`s, presumably a requirement of the GTSCC organisers.
I haven`t worked out the split between regular Guards and GTSCC entrants.

[Alan Raine]

The FF1600's at Oulton the other week added an extra 'Invitation' grid which started 30 seconds behind the official race. i.e. for the Post 89 race a non championship Pre 90 race was added and for the Pre 90 race a Post 89 non championship race. It all worked quite well and certainly spiced up the racing but there were one or two grumbles when a non championship racer caused a Safety Car and it got a bit fraught when the quicker cars from race 2 caught up with the slower cars from race 1.

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Robert Farrell

" seems that the Snetterton 3 hour/GTSCC combined grid was a successful marriage"
A great idea. But.
We didn`t enter due to the need for L`s, presumably a requirement of the GTSCC organisers.
I haven`t worked out the split between regular Guards and GTSCC entrants.

I think about 50/50 split. What car did you want to enter that runs Dunlop M's? You are correct in assuming GTSCC only allow L's. I guess the organisers have to go one way or the other or have separate podiums?

[DaveGT6]

Something I've never really understood is why some series/championships limit tyres to Dunlop L section whilst others allow L and M. Were L sections only available in period or did regulations specify L in period in which case where and when were Ms introduced? I've seen some cars running Ls on one axle and Ms at the other end where regs allow you to run either.

Hopefully someone can clarify this seemingly arbitrary ruling?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by DaveGT6

Something I've never really understood is why some series/championships limit tyres to Dunlop L section whilst others allow L and M. Were L sections only available in period or did regulations specify L in period in which case where and when were Ms introduced? I've seen some cars running Ls on one axle and Ms at the other end where regs allow you to run either.

Hopefully someone can clarify this seemingly arbitrary ruling?

I think that M section tyres were introduced (for F1 and Sports Racing cars) in 1966, the L section in 1962, so perhaps for Pre 66 some organisers deem the M section too new? I believe for small wheels that only choice is L, so in some categories that could have a bearing.

[DaveGT6]

Originally Posted by Mike Bell

I think that M section tyres were introduced (for F1 and Sports Racing cars) in 1966, the L section in 1962, so perhaps for Pre 66 some organisers deem the M section too new? I believe for small wheels that only choice is L, so in some categories that could have a bearing.

Thanks Mike that makes sense I guess.

[zefarelly]

It laregely depends on what fits on the car. for 13" 4.50 L's are too small and 5.50 too big . . . period tyres were 5.20 and they don't make them !

that goes for quite a few cars I can think of

[Brian A]

My concern with combining grids revolves around tyres - as alluded to by Mike.

I ran with the original Classic K series with the CSCC a couple of years back. Because of declining grids at that time, one of the races was merged with their Swinging Sixties race where the cars were running 60 profile Yokohamas, with us on L section Dunlops.

The difficulty was that many of the SS drivers seemed totally unaware of how the characteristics of historic cross plies influenced the manner in which the Dunlop shod cars needed to corner and as it was on the tight Mallory circuit, it was a very uncomfortable race.

A few weeks ago, the Fiscar race (on L sections) was consolidated with the HSCC Historic Roadsports grid (Yokos). This worked a lot better, perhaps because the awareness was better, but I think mainly because of the much greater space available on the Silverstone GP circuit. We are due to repeat the experience at the HSCC Superprix so I hope that the Brands GP circuit delivers a similar experience.

My personal preference is not to mix Dunlop historic tyres with modern low profile "sticky" road tyres. Mixing car types with compatible performance levels makes a lot of sense from an economic standpoint - but please pay attention to their comparative handling characteristics.

[Al Weyman]

There were combined grids for the Televised CTCRC meeting at Silverstone last week and where as the got 43 cars out the TV coverage and commentary was just concentrating on the front runners and hardly mentioned the pre-84's and didn't mention at all the Pre 2005's just the 93's, if grids are combined the commentators must be even handed and not just feature the first three. Apart from that logistically it has to happen!

[ITSIDWAYS]

Hi all

I have to say that I really enjoyed the experience of a mixed grid at Silverstone .I had some great battles with the pre93 cars that I would not normally race against in pre 83. We did get a fair bit of TV coverage at the back as there was around 8 of us all charging for the same bit of road. Unfortunalty the car packed up but I still had a great weekend.

I wonder what the grids for cadwell will be like.

[Nick JM]

The difficulty was that many of the SS drivers seemed totally unaware of how the characteristics of historic cross plies influenced the manner in which the Dunlop shod cars needed to corner and as it was on the tight Mallory circuit, it was a very uncomfortable race.



Good point well made. I cannot understand why some series allow tyres like Yokos.. Fabulous grip but it is not in keeping with the cars of the period and to be honest surely it puts more stress on the cars which were designed to slide rather than grip , in period?

[Mike Bell]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

Good point well made. I cannot understand why some series allow tyres like Yokos?

IMHO two words- Cost, Availability.......

[Nick JM]

You may well be right - however the replacement of suspension bits caused by increased wear and tear due to more grip/stress must also be a factor

[DAVID PATERSON]

Originally Posted by Nick JM

The difficulty was that many of the SS drivers seemed totally unaware of how the characteristics of historic cross plies influenced the manner in which the Dunlop shod cars needed to corner and as it was on the tight Mallory circuit, it was a very uncomfortable race.



Good point well made. I cannot understand why some series allow tyres like Yokos.. Fabulous grip but it is not in keeping with the cars of the period and to be honest surely it puts more stress on the cars which were designed to slide rather than grip , in period?

In Australia we have a series for pre'73 Classic Touring Cars and years ago they allowed these sticky modern Yokos etc. A couple of years later, they banned them and foreced everyone on to street tyres. Grids dwindled enormously, competitors were so happy with the modern sticky tyres, they refused to go back to street tyres and simply parked the cars.

Inevitably, the governing body reversed their decision and allowed the modern sticky radials back in and the grids flourished again. This is now one of the most popular categories in Australia, has been for years.

[Al Weyman]

Surely the old Touring Cars including Group 1 ran on slicks so the argument that List 1b tyres puts more strain on components doesn't really stack up.

[Nick JM]

Different era Al. I'm talking about 50's and 60's. However it's irrelevant to a degree because the whole point is that mixed grids on different rubber will create greatly different speeds between cars of the same type which in turn promotes incidents.

[John Turner]

Absolutely, Nick. As Brian pointed out with his running in two mixed grids recently it does create issues. I think combined grids need to be carefully selected and close attention paid to levels of performance and grip of the two groups. I'm not a fan, frankly, although there will be occasions when running on GP circuits at Silverstone and Brands require big grids and then it becomes an obvious solution to combine them.

As for old cars running on modern slicks, I cannot understand it. Seems to defeat the point of historic racing. The driver is not remotely experiencing the car as it should be felt nor the spectator seeing it move around as it should. As has been stated above the higher grip levels and cornering speeds place extra stress on other components that were never designed to accept them. If you want to corner faster get a modern car.

[Al Weyman]

I had a coming together recently in a combined race, probably mostly my fault but the fact was the much more modern, lighter car equipped with anti lock brakes was able to retake me into the chicane after I had got past him down the straight, unfortunately I had a major brake lock up and couldn't haul the old girl up and was having to go straight on through the chicane but unfortunately the lighter car nipped in front and I T-Boned him.

[Robyn Slater]

If you want to corner faster get a modern car.

Couldn't agree more

A big part of the fun for me is driving on Dunlop CR65's

[FISCracer]

Agree with everything that has been said about mixed grids with some on historic and others on modern tyres but there is another solution.....reduce the race entry costs and the grid size will increase

I had a very good laugh to myself recently when I found that my entry fee was 40% of some others for racing at the same meeting on the same day on the same track - albeit with a bigger grid. I see CSCC have almost 70 at Spa next weekend. Maybe they have understood their market better than others.

[andy97]

Originally Posted by FISCracer

I see CSCC have almost 70 at Spa next weekend. Maybe they have understood their market better than others.

I think that's just for one pair of races, Swinging Sixties. Theres another full grid for the Inter Series races. Over 120 cars going over in total.

[Podd37]

Originally Posted by John Turner

As for old cars running on modern slicks, I cannot understand it. Seems to defeat the point of historic racing. The driver is not remotely experiencing the car as it should be felt nor the spectator seeing it move around as it should. As has been stated above the higher grip levels and cornering speeds place extra stress on other components that were never designed to accept them. If you want to corner faster get a modern car.

John, surely the huge increase in engine power, suspension developement etc in 'modern' historic racing has removed the feel of how the cars used to be anyway....No cortinas, minis, bmw's etc cornered as flat as they do now or developed the power they do now in period
As someone that races an early 70's Gp2(esque) car on modern rubber, I personally kept the wheel width down to save wear and tear on suspension gearbox etc. and to keep tyre costs down. I should be on 13 x 9 inch slicks, not my current 13 x 6 yokos. Not really sure what else I could run on anyway. Having also raced moderns believe me it still feels like a 40 yr old car. And as for all the supposed accidents mixing tyres can bring? Perhaps a little less of a do or die, win at all costs mentality is needed? Or maybe im getting old.....