Monza chicanes

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Quite frankly I'd rather they made minor changes to circuits, but have it so drivers have to overtake, I think we've had enough of this slam dunk DRS passing

Help me understand the part I have made bold. I don't think I understand what you are trying to say.

Richard

[marcel82]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Chicanes are very rarely fun and plenty of drivers and fans would be happy to see the end of most of them. Maybe they could replace the first chicane with a sweeping right then a left. The second chicane could be replaced with something similar. The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

Variante Ascari is one of the best corners in racing. don't touch it.
the first chicane in Monza, honestly... it's the scene of so many incidents, I wonder why they keep it for "safety reasons".

But I don't know how they'd change it. Yes cars are very safe these days, but an F1-car going into Curva Grande with brake failure and no chicane... that would meet the wall pretty quickly.

[peebee2]

Originally Posted by marcel82

Variante Ascari is one of the best corners in racing. don't touch it.
the first chicane in Monza, honestly... it's the scene of so many incidents, I wonder why they keep it for "safety reasons".

But I don't know how they'd change it. Yes cars are very safe these days, but an F1-car going into Curva Grande with brake failure and no chicane... that would meet the wall pretty quickly.

Ascari is one of those weird corners. Awesome to drive, but difficult to see what it's all about spectating.

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Richard Casto

Help me understand the part I have made bold. I don't think I understand what you are trying to say.

Richard

What I mean is I'd rather see drivers using their skill to overtake than pushing a button.

[Richard C]

Originally Posted by S griffin

What I mean is I'd rather see drivers using their skill to overtake than pushing a button.

Understand. I can't remember who or where, but there was a similar sentiment on the forum recently. I think it might have been in the "DRS time to go" thread.

https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=157084

I think the general thought was... drivers use DRS instead of trying to pass using classic techniques, so we only see DRS passing (in general) With the idea that if DRS was gone, we would see a resurgence of passing using those classic techniques. I think my response is buried in that thread, but I think it might boil down to something like.. Yes, drivers may wait to attempt a DRS pass if that option exists and is easier/less risky. But I also think fans underestimate the difficulty in performing classic passes (given the situation in F1 today including relative performance parity), how frequently that would occur (much less than today) and if fans would be ok with that reduced frequency (some here, yes, vast majority, probably not).

I also would be in favor of minor track changes that increase the quality of racing or create passing opportunities. I think the challenge is converting that goal into reality. In that... if it was easy, it would have already been done.

Richard

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by Akrapovic

This post makes me physically ill.

I quite like Monza with some chicanes on it! It's a great circuit.

Wouldn't a better candidate to return to previous flat out layout be the Österreichring (Red Bull Ring), assuming there would be permission to cut down the forests as required to build sufficient run off areas.




It seems like the western part of the circuit still exists as a ring road, however some grandstands and possibly forest would need to be cleared to restore the eastern part of the circuit.

Do folks recall why the Österreichring was shortened and slowed in the first place? Were the reasons illogical and unreasonable?

Notably one of these 'unacceptable' chicanes was already installed on the circuit in 1977 -- ruining the circuit? -- such that the superior 1975 layout must be reinstated?

Highlights from the 1975 Austrian GP on the earlier layout

It seems the 1975 layout had little to no run-off areas at all, but of course this could be expanded when the original circuit is reinstated.

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

Chicanes are a blight on motor racing

Hmm, some people like superspeedway racing, some people don't. The Indy 500 worries me, I think averaging over 340 km/hr for hours is excessively dangerous. It seems a mere fluke that most crashes are merely glancing blows. Spectators and competitors seem to become numb to the danger after a short while, supposing that averaging such speeds is perfectly reasonable.

I appreciate that racing drivers are able to switch off the part of their brain responsible for fear, but would rather myself lap on a lower speed circuit with larger run off areas than a higher speed one without. You are less likely to roll your MG Maestro turbo on a circuit with 60 km/hr chicanes than 200 km/hr sweepers! They may say it is possible to take the sweeper flat out, but do you really want to find out if it isn't (best case scenario: you leave the circuit backwards but don't hit anything and don't roll, assuming the Maestro is a road car without a roll cage, it doesn't have the integrated roll over protection system of a more modern vehicle)...

Originally Posted by S griffin

They usually are added because people aren't imaginative enough to try and find a different solution to slowing cars down, without taking away a challenge too much

So you would remove the Senna chicane on the Adelaide Parklands circuit and replace it with a large runoff area to the outside of the corner?

The other gravel traps live there all the time, so that would be a permanent gravel trap reducing the useable park space and good luck getting permission to cut down historic trees. For the short time that there was no event at the circuit, some folks were even keen to remove the permanent section of circuit entirely and return it to park...

All for something which I am not convinced would improve the circuit.

You will have just moved the problem to the next Wakefield Rd/East Terrace corner which will now need a much larger runoff area as well, owing to the higher approach speed.

[NaBUru38]

The best chicane in the world is the S do Senna at Interlagos.

Istanbul Park copied it (though faster), and it also works. Unlike the last chicane before the main straight, which is awful for overtaking.

Monza could have better chicanes, but it would require cutting trees, which is unlikely to be approved (it's a municipal park).

[Greem]

I hesitate to write this, but...

Saying that chicanes show a lack of imagination only shows a complete lack of understanding of the integrated motorsport world. Circuits aren't only used by super fast, super fragile F1 cars. They have everything from those, thru MotoGP bikes (which are essentially half an F1 car) all the way down to the Milanese Fiat 500 racing club.

Some of those absolutely *love* chicanes, because they get to do the "last of the late brakers" line that Brundle was so fond of before F1 cars became the massive bloaters that they are nowadays.

It does seem to me that there is a proportion of posters here who conveniently forget, despite posting on other series' forums, that anything outside F1 exists.

Without chicanes some circuits are too fast. They cannot be simply modified to provide acres of run off, and people have died.

Anyone suggesting that chicanes are a problem... Well, in the words of Apple's CEO all those years ago "you're holding it wrong".

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by Greem

I hesitate to write this, but...

Saying that chicanes show a lack of imagination only shows a complete lack of understanding of the integrated motorsport world. Circuits aren't only used by super fast, super fragile F1 cars. They have everything from those, thru MotoGP bikes (which are essentially half an F1 car) all the way down to the Milanese Fiat 500 racing club.

Some of those absolutely *love* chicanes, because they get to do the "last of the late brakers" line that Brundle was so fond of before F1 cars became the massive bloaters that they are nowadays.

It does seem to me that there is a proportion of posters here who conveniently forget, despite posting on other series' forums, that anything outside F1 exists.

Without chicanes some circuits are too fast. They cannot be simply modified to provide acres of run off, and people have died.

Anyone suggesting that chicanes are a problem... Well, in the words of Apple's CEO all those years ago "you're holding it wrong".

All very true of course.

But, I think there are two ways to approach the dilemma of circuit suitability as a whole.

From the circuit's perspective - is the circuit intended for multiple types of user, or focussed on one particular discipline? If F1 is the main user - maybe that should be the focus of circuit design - accepting that the circuit is unsuitable for some disciplines?

From the series' perspective - should they go to a circuit that is compromised because of multiple disciplines using the location. Or should they accept that some circuits are not appropriate and go to F1-specific circuits instead?

A lot of people get hung up on visiting circuit X just because it is circuit X, and then look for ways to improve that circuit for F1 use. Such as the case here - where the OP proposed that Monza needs to change to be suitable (better) for F1 cars in 2023. Is the better option to move away from Monza and go to a more suitable track?

I appreciate this is an ideal world situation - but we can at least speculate what that would look like.
In the meantime - the reality is that such changes to Monza are just unwanted by many for various reasons.

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

From the circuit's perspective - is the circuit intended for multiple types of user, or focussed on one particular discipline?

Reading this makes me think about Francorchamps 2022 changes -Speaker Corner and "new" gravel traps- allowing two different homologations, FIA and FIM Grade C. Seems pretty well accepted, don't you think so? As to chicane "haters", strange nobody mentions Monaco…

[S griffin]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Reading this makes me think about Francorchamps 2022 changes -Speaker Corner and "new" gravel traps- allowing two different homologations, FIA and FIM Grade C. Seems pretty well accepted, don't you think so? As to chicane "haters", strange nobody mentions Monaco…

Maybe that's because the chicane at Monaco at least gives an opportunity to pass. Not much, but more of an opportunity than other places at the circuit.

Someone mentioned the Variante Ascari earlier and to be fair that seems a bit more like a complex than a chicane, albeit a very small one where drivers can't do much

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by S griffin

Someone mentioned the Variante Ascari earlier and to be fair that seems a bit more like a complex than a chicane, albeit a very small one where drivers can't do much

Yes - in post #4:

Originally Posted by S griffin

The Variante Ascari could easily be made into a tight double apex left hander

I'm not sure exactly how you are envisaging this change - maybe the 1972 layout (when it was referred to as the 2' chicane):



It only lasted for two seasons in that layout, before being opened out to its current configuration.

I appreciate that things have changed a lot in terms of safety since then, but I think we should still remember the lessons of history [www.monzanet.it]:

'Consequent to this development of cars [wings, power, tyres] and in concert with the GPDA (Grand Prix Drivers' Association), two chicanes were built in 1972 for the purpose of reducing speed at the entrance to the fastest curves on the track, the "Grande" curve at the end of the grandstand straight and the "Ascari" curve. These chicanes had a selective function for cars and drivers; the first was located on the grandstand straight at the junior cut-off entrance and consisted of a S on the 24-metre width of the track made by means of two consecutive central islands, bounded by guardrails and separated by a passage 9 metres wide.

The second was built at the entrance to the Ascari curve and consisted of an elongated S, made up of a rather tight short-radius left curve followed by a right curve with a larger radius and an approximately 80° bend, and finally a 52° left curve leading into the central straight. [...]

The chicanes, however, proved to be a makeshift solution and were responsible for numerous accidents and collisione, although not serious. And then, just as the cars had done, motorcycles too, at the end of the seventies, adopted large tyres with high adherence-coefficient compounds, and later with smooth-treads which, as they let riders lean over further, improved speed in the curves while considerably increasing the risk of falling and hence the number of accidents.

But the motorcycles continued to use the road track without chicanes and, in the first half of 1973, there were two serious accidents on the "Grande" curve. The first happened in the Grand Prix of Nations; shortly after the start of the 250 class Renzo Pasolini had a piston seizure which caused many to fall and in which Pasolini himself and the Finnish rider Jarno Saarinen lost their lives. Forty days later, in a juniores race the "gentlemen " riders Chionio, Galtrucco and Colombini fell and were fatally injured at the samepoint.'

[...]

Following the serious situation created for cars, too, by the repeated, if not serious, accidents, which showed the ineffectiveness of the chicanes, in the three following years important work was undertaken to replace them with three layout changes or variants to slow down the track. In 1974 the chicane of the "Vialone" was completely revised, replacing the tight initial curve with a longer one and modifying the subsequent layout; on the continuation of the approaching straight a broad run-off area was created with a sand layer and catch fences. In 1976, to replace the chicane located on the grandstand straight, a variant was created in the section of the same straight after the beginning of the north curve of the speed track, consisting of a succession of two left curves alternating with two right curves with radius and angle such as to reduce speed in that section to about 100 Km/h at the inlet and 120 Km/h at the end. Top speed on the approaching straight of the "Grande" curve was thus reduced from over 300 Km/h to about 180 Km/h. At the same time, another variant was built at approximately 300 metres from the entrance to the first Lesmo curve, consisting of a left curve followed by a right curve and forcing reduction of top speed in the following straight from 280 Km/h to 180 Km/h.

These two variants were also given adequate runoff areas with sand layers and catch fences. The three variants, which brought the length of the road track to 5,800 metres, considerably reduced practicable speed.'


I would urge anyone who is suggesting changes to the track to remember (and hold respect for) the past and what it can teach us about today.

[Sodemo]

The first Monza chicane should be restored to what it was before they changed it in 2001. It’s so much less interesting now as a corner.

[TrapezeArtist]

Originally Posted by Gerard C

Reading this makes me think about Francorchamps 2022 changes -Speaker Corner and "new" gravel traps- allowing two different homologations, FIA and FIM Grade C. Seems pretty well accepted, don't you think so? As to chicane "haters", strange nobody mentions Monaco…

I suppose I qualify; so, "Monaco is a horrible little circuit that only survives for marketing/sponsorship/commercial reasons".

[S griffin]

Well I’d like to add my own view in. Monaco may be good for the sponsors, but that doesn’t detract from what a great spectacle you get round there

[Gerard C]

Originally Posted by TrapezeArtist

I suppose I qualify; so, "Monaco is a horrible little circuit that only survives for marketing/sponsorship/commercial reasons".

Yeah!

[Adam43]

All of the remaining circuits only survive for marketing/sponsorship/commercial reasons!

Some that weren’t:
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=138643
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=27295
https://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=125312

[Gerard C]

You can add Charade in France. When you visited Rouen les Essarts in 2022, did you notice that a chicane was added in the descent? It's always been a dangerous track mainly because being non permanent the piles supporting the barriers were not secured. Hence some unwanted take-offs… The last corner before the long tribunes straight is named "Paradis". Evocative.

[BTCC frog]

After Vegas, I think it is an opportunity for me to bring up this point again.

Firstly, I know that chicanes are good for motor racing in general, I am not suggesting that every chicane is scrapped. But I am talking about one track in particular here, Monza.

I am suggesting that there are 24 races in a season now, and to keep it interesting for that many races, there needs to be significant variety between the tracks. Personally, I don't understand the calls to scrap the Monaco Grand Prix at all, because even if you find the race a bit dull, it is such a unique challenge that what is the point of replacing it with another race that is the same as all the others. It is interesting to have one race in a year where overtaking is so difficult because it makes the strategy totally different, and when an overtake happens it is so special. And qualifying at Monaco is one of the highlights of the year, and when the true skill of the drivers is fully shown more than any other time. It is not for everybody, but it is one race out of 24 that is a bit different and for me, it is the one race that should be the most undroppable from the calendar.

I think the same thinking should be applied to Monza. Along with Monaco, it is the other race with the most history in Formula 1. It would be pretty cool if it was the only race on the calendar which was almost entirely flat out, with a lift at a few corners and one braking point at the Parabolica, but apart from that it is effectively just a slipstreaming race like in the 1960s. I totally get why people wouldn't want that at every race and like the chicanes as a place for overtaking, but if it was the only race of the season like that, it would make Monza a unique and interesting challenge, much like Monaco but in a totally different way. I honestly think that, if it could be considered safe enough, it is an absolute no-brainer that this would be an improvement.

But the big barrier is safety. However, I have just seen a Grand Prix at Las Vegas where the last corner is flat out, high speed, with a wall right on the outside. Surely the risk is that two cars go flat out into Curva Grande, the one on the outside gets clipped and flies off into the barrier at high speed. That could be quite dangerous, and yet it seems more dangerous at Las Vegas considering the car would be hitting a wall, without scrubbing any speed off, and most extremely serious accidents in recent years seem to come from one car that has crashed then being hit by another one, which is far more likely on a street circuit lined by the wall. The wall seems angled in such a way that it wouldn't be so much of a change of momentum when hitting it, but it would still be a major accident, and it is a wall rather than a barrier which can be made to scrub speed off more slowly.

Effectively, I am saying that the last corner at Las Vegas appears more dangerous to me than Curva Grande would be if there was no chicane there. So if that has approved FIA safety checks, why wouldn't a chicane-free Monza do the same. Although admittedly the likelihood of a crash at Monza would be higher as cars would be more likely to go in side-by-side, I don't think it would be nearly as serious.

And I am talking about Formula 1 here, but for other series like WEC or GT, a race like that would also be interesting and unique from the rest of their calendar as well.

[Greem]

Without the chicanes, the cars wouldn't get that much opportunity to regenerate under braking. In order that they get the hybrid system charged, they'd have to harvest along the straights, which would impact their top speed and likely wouldn't produce the slipstreaming races you suggest.

Also, the walls used on street circuits like Vegas are actually designed to move when hit. Each block weighs something around 2 to 2.5 metric tonnes, so they don't move very far, but the energy of the collision is spread across many of them due to the way they're joined together. I wouldn't particularly want to hit one myself, but the combination of car design and circuit design means they're no more dangerous than bouncing across gravel or grass and slamming into Armco barriers.

As you point out, there is the obvious deflection back into the track problem but that can happen pretty much anywhere (except Silverstone where the barriers are so far back that they're in a separate post code).

I feel very much that while your suggestion might have some merits, it would be a case of "be careful for what you wish".

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

I quite like Monza with some chicanes on it! It's a great circuit.

Wouldn't a better candidate to return to previous flat out layout be the Österreichring (Red Bull Ring), assuming there would be permission to cut down the forests as required to build sufficient run off areas.




It seems like the western part of the circuit still exists as a ring road, however some grandstands and possibly forest would need to be cleared to restore the eastern part of the circuit.

Do folks recall why the Österreichring was shortened and slowed in the first place? Were the reasons illogical and unreasonable?

Notably one of these 'unacceptable' chicanes was already installed on the circuit in 1977 -- ruining the circuit? -- such that the superior 1975 layout must be reinstated?

Highlights from the 1975 Austrian GP on the earlier layout

It seems the 1975 layout had little to no run-off areas at all, but of course this could be expanded when the original circuit is reinstated.

Safety was primarily the concern, particularly after the 1987 GP, which had multiple accidents, prompting the FIA to drop the GP from the F1 calendar. Changes were made but there were still safety concerns regarding other racing series, like Hans Stuck's crash in 1995 Super Touring Cup. This lead to a major rebuilding program and the track being reconfigured, hence the shortened version.

racingcircuits.com has a history of the track which is worth reading.

https://www.racingcircuits.info/euro...rrichring.html