[Driver] Lewis Hamilton is the best driver in F1. Discuss

[chillibowl]

Originally Posted by chunterer;

I think Webber's early F1 career mirrored someone like Frentzen's - massive promise, except unlike Frentzen Webbo has gone on to deliver properly whereas Heinz bottled

it all boils down to management.

[Marbot]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Button's come on as a driver no question otherwise he wouldn't have held on for that one and only WDC last year..... oops bit presumptious perhaps!

Maybe!

Originally Posted by chunterer

But let's not forget that other than taking on Ralfie boy bretty well in 2000, Jense never exactly got on top of a teammate from Fisichella, Trulli, Villeneuve or Rubinho.

Fisichella and Trulli had better cars (better bits and all the upgrades) in Flavio's Renault team. Flav gave best car to wrong driver in both cases.

Jenson made Villeneuve look silly. Barrichello is up there with the best IMO.

Originally Posted by chunterer

Hamilton on the other hand gave Alonso a scare in season 1 and hasn't really been worried by anyone.

He need only worry about himself.

[strider]

Originally Posted by Super Hans

I agree.

Fisichella, for me, always looked excellent. I always wanted to see him in a front-running car. When he got there, he was lacklustre, showing only the occasional glimpse of magic. That's why I hesitate to include drivers who look special amongst those who've proved themselves to be special. I do love Kubica though. He's a proper racer, with no regard for the BS that comes with it. I'd say he's replaced Raikkonen as my personal favourite this year.

I agree with all that except the comparison with Fisichella.

For me, and also for Martin Brundle listening to the programme on Sunday, Kubica is now in the top 6. Apart from the lack of BS and the obvious speed, what makes him stand out is the lack of mistakes.

I'm also deeply impressed by the progress Renault have made this season in conjunction with him.

[garcon]

If the cards had fallen slightly differently, I think Kubica would have done at least as well as Vettel in the RB this season. Pure speculation, obviously.

When you look at the younger drivers out there, we have in store some exciting (and I think fairly even, cars allowing) competition between Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, maybe Rosberg, maybe Kobayashi.

And Alonso won't be packing it in any time soon.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by garcon

If the cards had fallen slightly differently, I think Kubica would have done at least as well as Vettel in the RB this season. Pure speculation, obviously.

When you look at the younger drivers out there, we have in store some exciting (and I think fairly even, cars allowing) competition between Hamilton, Vettel, Kubica, maybe Rosberg, maybe Kobayashi.

And Alonso won't be packing it in any time soon.

They're not there yet but I'd be inclined to add Perez and Ricciardo to that list. Those two youngsters have got star in the making written all over them imo.

[ralf fan]

Originally Posted by garcon

If the cards had fallen slightly differently, I think Kubica would have done at least as well as Vettel in the RB this season. Pure speculation, obviously.

Kubica doesn't get talked about too much, perhaps because he isn't as polarizing as a Hamilton or Alonso because it is easy to like Robert. I love watching the guy race. Hope Renault give him a nice car next year. Would be nice seeing him up there racing for wins. A pure racer he is.

[BMW_F1]

Originally Posted by ralf fan

Even after his 2008 title it could be argued that Alonso was a more complete driver.

He still is..
Lewis is the second best driver on the grid together with Kubica.

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by peckstar

you mean like last year BR. now i know the rose coloured glasses are on

Yes, like last year. Hamilton did a good job with that car. Would Button have done any better?

Button's gone from being under-rated to over-rated!

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

He still is..
Lewis is the second best driver on the grid together with Kubica.

It was but a few races ago that people were saying how many mistakes Alonso had made- his Silverstone cock-up, all his other errors this year, and how Hamilton is more unflappable (e.g. you don't see him throwing a wobbly as much, flapping his hands about).

Now suddenly Alonso is the most complete again thanks to two race-ending errors from Hamilton. The old adage "you're only as good as your last race" seems to apply to a lot of perceptions on the forum.

[Born Racer]

If Alonso is better than Hamilton, how come Hamilton was on his level from Year 1?

Or has Alonso improved since then?

Is it that people feel Alonso's own decision to cause civil unrest at McLaren contributed to performances which were below his potential and that he could have been better had he not done all that?

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Is it that people feel Alonso's own decision to cause civil unrest at McLaren contributed to performances which were below his potential and that he could have been better had he not done all that?

Well he almost certainly would've been triple world champion by now if all that crap didn't kick off.

[Born Racer]

Not necessarily because Hamilton might still have beaten him in the championship, unless you're counting letting an extremely fast driver compete against him as crap kicking off.

Although I suppose if he'd stayed beyond 2007, there's a good chance he would have picked up at least one championship against Hamilton.

[Wims]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If Alonso is better than Hamilton, how come Hamilton was on his level from Year 1?

Or has Alonso improved since then?

Is it that people feel Alonso's own decision to cause civil unrest at McLaren contributed to performances which were below his potential and that he could have been better had he not done all that?

Well, the team boss did state that they were racing against Alonso. Hard to beat your teammate when the entire team is rooting against you

[Born Racer]

Surely you know that Alonso know longer spoke to Ron Dennis at that point. Saying that, Freudian slip though it was, was no indicator that Alonso was not being given an equal opportunity. 'We' referred to 'our/his side of the garage'. Unsurprisingly by that point, Ron was almost certainly personally rooting for Hamilton. I would imagine Ron's fastidious nature and pride made absolutely sure that Alonso got equal treatment to the end. Ron is the better man.

[BMW_F1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

It was but a few races ago that people were saying how many mistakes Alonso had made- his Silverstone cock-up, all his other errors this year, and how Hamilton is more unflappable (e.g. you don't see him throwing a wobbly as much, flapping his hands about).

Now suddenly Alonso is the most complete again thanks to two race-ending errors from Hamilton. The old adage "you're only as good as your last race" seems to apply to a lot of perceptions on the forum.

Alonso's mistakes were what? ..
unfairly passing Kubica and not returning the place back..
poor start because he touched the white line..
crashed in Monaco Q. , crashed in Spa due to rain.. (all drivers crash and make mistakes - if they don't they are simply not trying hard)
This does not all suddenly turned Alonso into a lesser driver.. The reason he's made more mistakes this year compared to 05/06 is because he's been trying too hard to overcome the shortcomings of his car compared to the competition..
Lewis has always been IMO, not as complete as Alonso.. but very close, and just because of his two recent DNFs I no going to say that he is not as good as I previously thought.

[BMW_F1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

If Alonso is better than Hamilton, how come Hamilton was on his level from Year 1?

I think Alonso was slightly better than Lewis in 07.. [/QUOTE]

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

Alonso's mistakes were what? ..
unfairly passing Kubica and not returning the place back..
poor start because he touched the white line..
crashed in Monaco Q. , crashed in Spa due to rain.. (all drivers crash and make mistakes - if they don't they are simply not trying hard)
This does not all suddenly turned Alonso into a lesser driver..

I don't think he's a lesser driver as such. I think they're basically close to each other. But yes, you listed most or all of the mistakes I think.

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

I think Alonso was slightly better than Lewis in 07..

Fair comment. They were close enough that that's a fair view of the situation. I think Lewis was particularly the better in the earlier part of the season strangely. Alonso was better in Spa and Monza for example.

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

Lewis has always been IMO, not as complete as Alonso.. but very close, and just because of his two recent DNFs I no going to say that he is not as good as I previously thought.

Furry muff.

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

The reason he's made more mistakes this year compared to 05/06 is because he's been trying too hard to overcome the shortcomings of his car compared to the competition..

I would argue that's exactly what Lewis has been doing in Monza and Singapore- the shortcomings of his car particularly in Monza, and in Singapore the shortcomings of his pit strategy.

[BMW_F1]

Originally Posted by Born Racer

I would argue that's exactly what Lewis has been doing in Monza and Singapore- the shortcomings of his car particularly in Monza, and in Singapore the shortcomings of his pit strategy.

maybe.. the thing with lewis is that he's already got a history or blowing up a huge lead in two consecutive nonscoring races - sounds like cracking under pressure to me...
Even in Brazil 08 his performance dropped and Massa was WDC for 15 seconds.. he got a bit lucky there..

[Born Racer]

Originally Posted by BMW_F1

maybe.. the thing with lewis is that he's already got a history or blowing up a huge lead in two consecutive nonscoring races - sounds like cracking under pressure to me...
Even in Brazil 08 his performance dropped and Massa was WDC for 15 seconds.. he got a bit lucky there..

In China 07, the team should have called him in. He also could have made the decision and insisted (like Button might have), but that inexperience and reliance on the team's decision cost him. I'll grant you Brazil 07 was scrappy, but the problem that really cost him was with the car, slowing him down and losing him critical ground. What he had lost by going off probably wasn't enough to lose him the championship.

In Brazil 08, this time his problem may have been being too cautious rather than being overly-exuberant as during the previous year. Massa was never really world champion for 15 seconds was he? That's the way the media like to present the soap opera style drama of the race.

[rloewy]

In my opinion, Alonso is the best driver in F1 with Lewis a close 2nd. I think Lewis needs just a bit more maturity to really be there with Alonso neck and neck.

I have been very impressed with Hulkenberg this year (and last year as well). He is going to be quite a driver with a couple of seasons under his belt and a better car.

[bjohnsonsmith]

Originally Posted by rloewy

In my opinion, Alonso is the best driver in F1 with Lewis a close 2nd. I think Lewis needs just a bit more maturity to really be there with Alonso neck and neck.

I agree with that, particularly about maturity. Though I think not having has dad around this season has certainly helped him.

[Ralf's Girl]

Originally Posted by Wims

Well, the team boss did state that they were racing against Alonso. Hard to beat your teammate when the entire team is rooting against you

He didn't exactly do himself any favours. Trying to blackmail your boss isn't generally a good way to get your colleagues on side.

For me it's all the distasteful things Alonso has been involved in that sour my opinion of him - there was the blackmail, the race-fixing (which I remain convinced that he must have known about), the blatant team orders...and that's before you take into account his incessant whining. His talent isn't in question, but his character is, and I can't look at one without considering the other.

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

For me it's all the distasteful things Alonso has been involved in that sour my opinion of him...

His talent isn't in question, but his character is, and I can't look at one without considering the other.

Yup there is that to consider but then Senna and Prost weren't exactly angels at their peak - both got embroiled in political 'games' and fit of piques against their respective teams at one point or another - and both of those drivers were similarly 'either love em or not' with the F1 fans around the world?

[Ralf's Girl]

And I dare say that if 10 Tenths had been around when Senna and Prost were racing this debate would have been going on 20 years ago about them as well!

[chunterer]

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

And I dare say that if 10 Tenths had been around when Senna and Prost were racing this debate would have been going on 20 years ago about them as well!

Jeez, it would be a nightmare!!!!

We could do a quick summary of Lewis and Fernando's pros and cons.

Hamilton

Pros
Superb qualifier (maybe not as much so this season?)
Quick on cold tyres
Ist lap specialist
Opportunistic
Brilliant race craft
Not afraid to speak mind most of the time

Cons
Can overdrive car in a bit of a huff if things not quite to liking
Impetuous
Gets sucked into scrappy battles too easily
Naive (doesn't fully realise his actions verbally, or on track can have serious repercussions)
Can be flippant or arrogant

Alonso

Pros

Cons

Ahh, umm... aren't they exactly the same as for Lewis??!!! with the exception of tyre management maybe. Lewis very hard on rubber, Fernando a little kinder but neither have Button's ability in this area perhaps?