Driver Lewis Hamilton is the best driver in F1. Discuss - Page 17

Ralf's Girl · 30 Sep 2010, 11:57 (Ref:2767096)

I think you'd have to add "insufferable moaner" to Alonso's list of cons. Even when he's not happy about something, Hamilton doesn't tend to whinge the way Alonso does. For example, if the roles had been reversed in Valencia I think Hamilton would have just got on with the job instead of obsessing over whether another driver should have been given a penalty earlier.

**chunterer** · 30 Sep 2010, 12:12 (Ref:2767104)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I think you'd have to add "insufferable moaner" to Alonso's list of cons. Even when he's not happy about something, Hamilton doesn't tend to whinge the way Alonso does. For example, if the roles had been reversed in Valencia I think Hamilton would have just got on with the job instead of obsessing over whether another driver should have been given a penalty earlier.

Possibly yes. However Lewis has already shown in various pit to car calls in recent years that he is right up there in the moaning stakes, difference is I think his sounds more critical than complaining.

Mind you I think it's right that a top driver questions decisions - they're the ones driving the things.

Sometimes though I think that they forget or maybe don't care who's listening!

strider · 30 Sep 2010, 12:38 (Ref:2767111)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

I think you'd have to add "insufferable moaner" to Alonso's list of cons. Even when he's not happy about something, Hamilton doesn't tend to whinge the way Alonso does. For example, if the roles had been reversed in Valencia I think Hamilton would have just got on with the job instead of obsessing over whether another driver should have been given a penalty earlier.

I hope you will be able to live with it if Alonso wins the title, because I'm beginning to think that's what might happen. He's not my preferred choice either, but that doesn't make any difference, sadly.

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:07 (Ref:2767121)

I'm trying to prepare myself for Alonso winning, but it's difficult.

If the McLaren drivers can't do it, I really hope Webber or Vettel wins the world championship. I was so glad when Mark Webber didn't go out after the accident.

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:13 (Ref:2767124)

Well, I for one will be over the moon and celebrating a fine victory in unlikely circumstances when Alonso wins it. I couldn't have dreamt of a Ferrari win early in the season.

It'll be all the sweeter if it's by just a few points over Hamilton, so he knows that he only has himself to blame.

As for good and bad qualities, ALL drivers moan ALL the time - it's how they get their way. It's just that some have learnt to do it more privately most of the time so that the occasional public moan carries more force.

What Alonso needs to remember is not to take that moaning to a level where his sulking affects his performance, as happened (in circumstances more of the team's making than his) at McLaren.

mattt · 30 Sep 2010, 13:15 (Ref:2767126)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

...
It'll be all the sweeter if it's by just a few points over Hamilton, so he knows that he only has himself to blame.
...

But if its by less than 7 controversy will be writhe again

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:18 (Ref:2767129)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mattt

But if its by less than 7 controversy will be writhe again

True. That'll be another two fingers waved in the direction of the Ferrari haters then....

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:39 (Ref:2767138)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

It'll be all the sweeter if it's by just a few points over Hamilton, so he knows that he only has himself to blame.

Or so that he knows he and the Ferrari team are uncompromising cheats.

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

in circumstances more of the team's making than his) at McLaren.

Love it- Fernando Teflonso, one of the chief architects of Spygate, the man who knew all about it and was actively trying to use the stolen information to cheat was not a part of those circumstances.

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:42 (Ref:2767139)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

Ferrari haters

Ferrari make it oh-so-easy to hate them.

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:43 (Ref:2767140)

I know I'm not going to impact your conspiracy ridden world, but my memory must be fading. I could have sworn it was the McLaren team that were found guilty of cheating.

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:45 (Ref:2767144)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Born Racer

Ferrari make it oh-so-easy to hate them.

Anyone who truly "hates" a sports team really needs to get out more.

However, the vain self-righteousness of McLaren and their (and Hamilton's) fans does make it oh-so-easy to laugh at them.

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:46 (Ref:2767145)

Was Alonso not part of the McLaren team then? Your recollection of events is selective.

Did or did not Alonso try to use that information in e-mails with the also uninnocent Pedro de la Rosa? Did he or did he not also get immunity so that Max Mosley could punish Dennis (like Piquet got immunity when he wanted to punish Briatore)?

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:49 (Ref:2767146)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

However, the vain self-righteousness of McLaren

That made me chuckle. Ferrari and Teflonso showed a great deal of self-righteousness at Hockenheim and Valencia. Valencia "Ooh no, poor me, Hamilton got a penalty and it wasn't enough. Hamilton got away scott free. Punish him and ignore the fact my race was crap".

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 13:53 (Ref:2767149)

We're both selective then.

I can't help thinking Alonso's flaws (of which there are many in terms of his character) have much to do with the man who brought him into F1 and managed him for so many years. With luck, Ferrari will beat some of that out of him and teach him a little more about respect.

strider · 30 Sep 2010, 14:15 (Ref:2767166)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

What Alonso needs to remember is not to take that moaning to a level where his sulking affects his performance, as happened (in circumstances more of the team's making than his) at McLaren.

That's not going to happen at Ferrari because he's the centre of attention and that seems to be what needs.

Wims · 30 Sep 2010, 14:33 (Ref:2767180)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

He didn't exactly do himself any favours. Trying to blackmail your boss isn't generally a good way to get your colleagues on side.

For me it's all the distasteful things Alonso has been involved in that sour my opinion of him - there was the blackmail, the race-fixing (which I remain convinced that he must have known about), the blatant team orders...and that's before you take into account his incessant whining. His talent isn't in question, but his character is, and I can't look at one without considering the other.

You totally missed my point tho, the point was that its hard to beat your team mate when the team is working against you. Also, I wouldnt say that blackmailing your boss about a cheating scandal is quite as bad as the cheating itself. McLaren brought that on themselves, Alonso didnt bring it on them

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 14:57 (Ref:2767201)

Quote:

Originally Posted by strider

That's not going to happen at Ferrari because he's the centre of attention and that seems to be what needs.

Yeah, and even in Hockhenheim he managed to throw a hissy fit and say "this is ridiculous" on the radio to get the team to bend over backwards for him.

The fact he isn't prepared to take on a driver in equal conditions may not affect some people's perceptions of him. Some people will proclaim him as great this year if he wins the title, three-times WC, etc and will either turn a blind eye to or not care about this aspect of his character. And they will be happy with that. But for many of us, the way he is sullies our perceptions of him and rightfully so. Look at Schumacher- so much written about him has always been 'seven-times world champion BUT'. That 'but' refers to his on-track ethics.

Alonso's racecraft ethics are pretty good from what I've seen (a hard but fair racer), doing a few chops recently but then lots of them do that, but it's his off-track character and way he sets the team up around him that damages his reputation.

For that alone, and it's no minor point, he is not the best driver in F1.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

the point was that its hard to beat your team mate when the team is working against you.

In what way did the team work against him? As we know, his relationship with Ron Dennis was in tatters at the point you mention, but how did his team work against him? You are not being specific enough.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

Also, I wouldnt say that blackmailing your boss about a cheating scandal is quite as bad as the cheating itself. McLaren brought that on themselves, Alonso didnt bring it on them

He played a part, a very central part in bringing it upon them. As I mentioned earlier in the thread, he was trying to use this data. He and De la Rosa were sending e-mails back and forth about the information they had. I fail to understand how this does not implicate Alonso.

And he got away with it. One of many examples in which he's been like Teflon.

**garcon** · 30 Sep 2010, 15:10 (Ref:2767210)

You mean he played a central part in exposing McLaren's cheating.

Marbot · 30 Sep 2010, 15:24 (Ref:2767223)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

You mean he played a central part in exposing McLaren's cheating.

It wouldn't surprise me if he was the mysterious Mr X in crashgate.

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 15:37 (Ref:2767228)

Quote:

Originally Posted by garcon

You mean he played a central part in exposing McLaren's cheating.

Only after his blackmailing didn't work and the team wouldn't make him the number 1 driver. In other words, he was happy to be involved in the cheating until he couldn't get his way. Only then did he decide to reveal anything. Yes, he did play a central part in exposing McLaren's cheating but if we need examples of how a driver is part of the team, this is great one.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

It wouldn't surprise me if he was the mysterious Mr X in crashgate.

It wouldn't surprise me at all. That they didn't name Mr X must have been for a reason. Perhaps the F.I.A. figured it would have been seen as too damaging to Alonso's reputation if they revealed that embarrassingly Teflonso had been offered immunity twice.

Ralf's Girl · 30 Sep 2010, 15:58 (Ref:2767245)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Wims

You totally missed my point tho, the point was that its hard to beat your team mate when the team is working against you.

The point that both I and Born Racer were making is that if indeed his team was working against him (which I highly doubt), there's no evidence of that until the relationship between him and Ron Dennis had completely broken down, which was entirely Alonso's fault. However, I remain convinced that McLaren gave Alonso absolutely equal opportunities to win right up until the end of the season, and that it was his obsession with the team's supposed pro-Hamilton bias that cost him the title.

**bjohnsonsmith** · 30 Sep 2010, 18:00 (Ref:2767329)

There's always been a lot of talk about how McLaren have been built around Lewis and how he was Ron Dennis's protege and this 'obsession' was how Alonso perceived the situation?

strider · 30 Sep 2010, 18:31 (Ref:2767352)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marbot

It wouldn't surprise me if he was the mysterious Mr X in crashgate.

No, the name did come out at the time. It may have been Alan Permane. Alonso was distancing himself from the whole thing as fast as he could.

ralf fan · 30 Sep 2010, 18:33 (Ref:2767353)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ralf's Girl

The point that both I and Born Racer were making is that if indeed his team was working against him (which I highly doubt), there's no evidence of that until the relationship between him and Ron Dennis had completely broken down, which was entirely Alonso's fault. However, I remain convinced that McLaren gave Alonso absolutely equal opportunities to win right up until the end of the season, and that it was his obsession with the team's supposed pro-Hamilton bias that cost him the title.

As much as I admire Lewis remember the first rumblings of team orders that season came from the Hamilton camp not Alonso's when Hamilton said he wasn't allowed to win at Monaco ahead of Alonso.

I thought Lewis had no chance to win that race anyway because Alonso drove brilliantly but IIRC rather than praising Alonso's drive I remember Dennis went down the route of defending Hamilton with quotes which created the illusion that Hamilton in effect let Alonso win. Now for a 2 time world champion who has just joined a team and won serenely at Monaco this must have been galling especially since Alonso is a character that needs to be appreciated. All round bad man management from Ron and Hamilton himself wasn't blameless either. You can see why Alonso got the impression that Ron preferred Hamilton.

**Born Racer** · 30 Sep 2010, 18:51 (Ref:2767367)

Quote:

Originally Posted by ralf fan

As much as I admire Lewis remember the first rumblings of team orders that season came from the Hamilton camp not Alonso's when Hamilton said he wasn't allowed to win at Monaco ahead of Alonso.

I thought Lewis had no chance to win that race anyway because Alonso drove brilliantly but IIRC rather than praising Alonso's drive I remember Dennis went down the route of defending Hamilton with quotes which created the illusion that Hamilton in effect let Alonso win. Now for a 2 time world champion who has just joined a team and won serenely at Monaco this must have been galling especially since Alonso is a character that needs to be appreciated. All round bad man management from Ron and Hamilton himself wasn't blameless either. You can see why Alonso got the impression that Ron preferred Hamilton.

I don't recall Ron creating the illusion that Hamilton let Alonso win as such, Hamilton did say some slightly stroppy stuff about himself being the number 2 driver and having number 2 on the car; I was reading the Autosport Monaco Grand Prix report the other day. I'll dig it out again later and take a look.

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