Over subscribed championships ?

[The Badger]

Im wondering with respect to the LMS , the confirmed and potiential entries look well in excess of what the various circuits can accomodate .

What would happen if there were for example too many entries ?

How do you pick who gets an entry and who does not ? Maybe based on who had followed the series in the past !?!?

Is it allowed for example to assign only 1 pit place "per team" regardless of if its a 1 car or a 2 car effort ?

It does look possible you gotta admit .

[ger80]

Originally Posted by The Badger

Is it allowed for example to assign only 1 pit place "per team" regardless of if its a 1 car or a 2 car effort ?

Well, that helps in the pits but whats about 70 cars on the track with 4 different classes? Sorry, but I think that will not really work.
One 3hour qualifing race for LMP1 and LMP2 and another for GT1 and GT2 on saturday? That would be great action for the Fans but I think the teams will not like this proposal ...

[AU N EGL]

50 pit stalls ? Top 50 cars to qualify race, the others go home. That is what NASCAR does for the low owners point cars.

If there are four classes, then all cars need to be within 5% of the fastest qualifing lap times, anyone outside that 5% does not race.

5 or 10% depending on the track. 2 min laps then all cars must qualify in 2:06 or 5% or 2:12 for 10% or less

This also keeps the track safer with all cars at relativly the same speeds. Slow cars wind up not qualifing, needing to go home and work on improvments.

[SALEEN S7R]

One thing I would be in favour of if there were say 70-80 entries trying to get into the LMS would be to have 2 Championships. One being the main LMS consisting of say 8-10 rounds per season and going around the world, the other Championship being European based and consisting of 4-5 rounds. Each Championship would have the same race distances, 1000km. In each class at the end of the season the top 2 cars in each class from the European series would be promoted to the LMS for the next following season and the bottom 2 cars from each class in the LMS would be relegated. To help ensure that it is feasable for the European teams to make the step up to the LMS I would also propose that there is a prize fund for each team that gets promoted, say 1 million Euros per team who gets promoted. And maybe to sweeten the deal a bit for the teams in the Euro series the ACO could give automatic entries to the winning car in each class, where as the teams in the LMS would get 2 automatic entries per winning team.

Now Im aware that my idea is far from perfect but with the right people it could be ironed out, or something similar anyway. True not everyone would be happy but it would be a fair way to decide who does and doesen't race in the LMS and would cure the problem we have with over subscribed grids.

[Suze]

I understand the idea and where you're coming from, but as has been mentioned with GP2 and F1, would a promoted team from the European series be able to afford to then compete more rounds worldwide? I'm not sure the prize find would be enough, what happens if a team only has one car promoted etc?

Whilst the idea is not a good one even with it being ironed out or something similar being formed, I can't see it working I'm afraid.

[SALEEN S7R]

Comparing the idea to GP2 and F1 is a completly differnt matter. With a GP2 team making the step up to F1 they would have to spend lots of money on buying a customer chassis from a existing F1 team or designing one of their own from scratch. The ammount that alone costs you could run a 2 car privateer LMP1 team.

With the idea I outlined above all you need is a slightly bigger budget in order to compete at more events. The 1 million Euro prize fund for the top 2 teams in each class should be enough to cover the travelling costs. There should be no need for much more in terms of money, why? Well because the cars that were running in the European championship would be running to the same rules and regulations as the top flight LMS. If you had a new Zytek 07's for example and were running it in a European based version of the LMS there is no reason why the car woudnt be eligable for the main Worldwide LMS Championship, so there woudnt be any need to buy a new car!

The same applies to all classes in both Championships I propose. Why? Because each class would run to identical regulations and therefore the cars would be the same. The only differnce between the 2 Championships would perhaps be the quality of some of the teams.

[SALEEN S7R]

By the way just to make it clear I dont think this will happen for a long time yet. Maybe never, but one day if there is 70-90 cars wanting to enter the LMS then I think it could be feasable, at the moment it obviously isnt.

[Suze]

It's still the discussion of relegation and promotion though, which is I also believe you are getting at.

It still doesn't solve though what you would do / teams would be prepared to do in order of one car of the team being promoted and the other one not because that will cost them more money in terms of stretched resources and manpower.

And where does / would the prize fund money come from? Sponsorship, increased entry fees etc, where?

Also, if a car is relegated from the worldwide series to the European one, whilst the race lengths are the same they may not be happy with the decrease in number of rounds.

I understand it's an idea and to try and help oversubscribed grids, however personally I've never been a fan of promotion / relegation in any form of motorsport.

[SALEEN S7R]

Originally Posted by Suze

It still doesn't solve though what you would do / teams would be prepared to do in order of one car of the team being promoted and the other one not because that will cost them more money in terms of stretched resources and manpower.

Of course that could be a potential trip hazard for many teams, however as I said the team would get a prize fund of 1 million Euro's plus a automatic entry to Le Mans for the following year, the ammount of sponsorship a team can attract by having a automatic entry for Le Mans is very signifcant. And then there is the prize fund, sure 1 million euro's isnt masses but it is certainly a significant ammount.

And where does / would the prize fund money come from? Sponsorship, increased entry fees etc, where?

The money would come directly from the ACO. Or perhaps if the 2 series ever got big enough a title sponsor. The ACO would get a signifcant ammount in terms of revenue from having 2 Championships, providing there were enough cars to justify having 2 series. Both series would attract crowds and teams and a certain ammount of TV coverage, all of this would further boost the ACO's coffers. The ACO are not short on cash, the ammount of revenue they must get from Le Mans alone is huge. Providing there is enough cars to justify having 2 series the ACO are helping themselves.

[archibold]

The within a certain % of class pole does not work as the circuit has a fixed amount of cars it can take according to its licence based upon the length of race. So the longer the race the more cars you can run (I think it is something like 4 hours+ then +50% cars on the sprint (say 15 minute) normal limit). So however it is done it must not breach this limit. That said splitting the quota equally between the classes also cause the possibility of having 3 "full" classes and one with a space due to retirements before the race starts. Maybe a quota system for each class depending upon expected strength and then based upon qualifying position. Though that is also tricky as the teams with paying drivers need the income and when the car starts the race a signigficant majority of the teams costs have already been paid in entry, prep, transport and parts/tyre purchases. Interesting...

Archibold

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by archibold

The within a certain % of class pole does not work as the circuit has a fixed amount of cars it can take according to its licence based upon the length of race. So the longer the race the more cars you can run (I think it is something like 4 hours+ then +50% cars on the sprint (say 15 minute) normal limit). So however it is done it must not breach this limit. T

Archibold

and certain % of class pole times. If the cars do not meet that % they dont race, even if it is under the circuit limit. If the limit is 50 cars and only 45 cars make the cut off percenage, then 45 cars race, not the circut limit of 50.


IMHO Teams need to do better marketing to get larger and stronger sponsors. Yes the idea of the promoting orgainzation providing some contingancey money is good. But to my understanding only F1, NASACAR( top three series, Cup, Busch and Truck) get prize any significant prize money. Anyone know of other race sereise with significat prize money?

[SALEEN S7R]

I dont know if the following series do or dont but as they are major Championships I would guess they do offer something in the way of prize money. Moto GP, Champcar, IRL, WSBK, WTCC, DTM oh and I know that A1 GP does. I beleive that A1 Team France who won the Championship last year got around £2.5 million in total, the A1 organisers gave you money if you won a race you see and then there was cash to be won in the final points standings depending on where you finished.

[duke_toaster]

What about heats on saturday?

LMPs first, than GT's. Top (if, for example there are 80 spaces for the race) 20 from each class.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

IMHO Teams need to do better marketing to get larger and stronger sponsors.

It doesnt make a differance how much sponsorship a team has if there isnt a place on the grid for them . How does a team search for a sponsor if the team cant guarantee that they have a start for the championship ?

[Bentley03]

I've suggested this before, but a quick fix for the oversubscription we appear to have in the LMS would be to simply axe GT2. Axe GT1 from the FIAGT at the same time and potentially both the Le Mans Series and the FIAGT would benefit.


(......and no, I'm not volunteering to tell the GT2 teams who would be affected! )

[JAG]

By the time the Championship starts I reckon we will have around 50 firm entries.

P1 and P2 teams are likely to have guaranteed entries as the series is targeted at these classes, they cannot race anywhere else, the ACO needs to maintain a European prototype presence.

GT1 is having struggles so entries in this class are unlikely to be huge.

That leaves GT2 to be culled!

[SALEEN S7R]

Nothing really needs to be culled. Personally I think that 2 Championships could work, but differntly to how I mentioned before.

Why not start a ACO version of the FIA SCC? This time around I think it would work, providing the ACO continue to do things the way they have been. You could have a race for GT1 and GT2 cars either on the day before or before the LMP1 and LMP2 race, say a race distance of 500km for the GT's and 1000km for the LMP's. It would certainly free up some more grid space and give the fans something extra to watch.

Either that or how about getting rid of GT2 from the main LMS and having LMP1/LMP2/GT1 racing together and having a race for GT2 and GT3 cars before or after the main LMS event? The GT2/GT3 race could be say 500km in distance. True you still have the problem of pit space but then lots of other Championships share garages during the course of a weekend, Moto GP would be a good example of this.

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by The Badger

It doesnt make a differance how much sponsorship a team has if there isnt a place on the grid for them . How does a team search for a sponsor if the team cant guarantee that they have a start for the championship ?

Welcome to 21st Centry racing. There are no guarentees.
Most sponsorships come in Contigancies. You recieve X amount of Money IF you make the race, X+Y if you get a podium finish and and X+Y+Z if you WIN.

Your winning record and teams past performance helps you keep and secure new sponsors. Sponsors just dont though money at teams, they want results and or they truely 'SEE' what racing is all about.

To start the team off, some rich guy or group of ppl put up their own money FIRST.

[The Badger]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Welcome to 21st Centry racing. There are no guarentees.
Most sponsorships come in Contigancies. You recieve X amount of Money IF you make the race, X+Y if you get a podium finish and and X+Y+Z if you WIN.

Your winning record and teams past performance helps you keep and secure new sponsors. Sponsors just dont though money at teams, they want results and or they truely 'SEE' what racing is all about.

To start the team off, some rich guy or group of ppl put up their own money FIRST.

WOW ..... ya dont say !!!

[AU N EGL]

Originally Posted by The Badger

WOW ..... ya dont say !!!

But for The Badger, he could walk into any big corporation and the will toss truck loads of money at him to run a LMP1 or 2 team all with a handshake of getting results.



If was only that easy.

[FIRE]

LMS for LMP1 and LMP2 + FIA GT for GT1 and GT2

or:

LMS for LMP1, LMP2 and GT2 + FIA GT for GT1

[SALEEN S7R]

Sounds good to me fire! Let the ACO keep the LMP's and give the GT's to FIA GT.

[HORNDAWG]

First I think we need to see how many actually show up and how consistantly. Then we can see how the ACO handle it as no matter what they do they will (insert appropriate word) somebody off! Also has anyone applied the formula to this years tracks to determine what their capacity under the rule is?!
If it did come to pass that a new formula was needed to determine eligibility then IMO it should be track max. divided by 4(classes). If not enough cars in upper classes then spots trickle down proportionately to the # of cars per class. Say 15 cars per class and only 12 P-1's then the 3 extra grid spots pass to the rest of the field, 1 to P-2, 1 to GT-1, 1 to GT-2. Total grid spots divided equally by remaining classes in a cascading scale.

If it were under FIRE's format I would rather see it as

LMS= P-1 Diesel Coupes, P-2 gas spyders(open tops), GT-1 w/FIA GT-1 absorbed.

FIA= GT-2,3 and 4 running together .

L.P.

ps. But I do not see it happening!!! And like the current format!

[TheNewBob]

Originally Posted by SALEEN S7R

Let the ACO keep the LMP's and give the GT's to FIA GT.

That's a good idea if you want to see GT racing completely killed off...

[FCYTravis]

Originally Posted by AU N EGL

Most sponsorships come in Contigancies. You recieve X amount of Money IF you make the race, X+Y if you get a podium finish and and X+Y+Z if you WIN.

I'd doubt that "most" of them have provisions remotely like that.