Which drivers should go?

[Patrick Fletche]

To make room for young guns to come in and prove themselves.

Possibilities:
Sakon Yamamoto, should he even be there in the first place?
Ralf Schumacher, can he be bothered, except at contract renewal?
Giancarlo Fisichella, outclassed for years now.
Alexander Wurz, never going to set the world on fire.
Jarno Trulli, ageing one lap wonder.
Rubens Barrichello, still has it, let down by awful car.
Mark Webber, one lap wonder, flatters to deceive.
David Coulthard, nice guy, great developer, but slowing in his dotage.

Personally I would rather see Vitantonio Liuzzi and Scott Speed racing in F1 than some of these.

[nycuk]

We're definitely heading for a major changing of the guard with so many old hands approaching the end of their careers in F1.
For me, I think that Fisi, Trulli, Webber, DC and Rubens still have something to offer, at least for one more season, although there are several guys who could do just as good a job if given the chance. Wurz I think hasn't really done enough to prove himself this year and Ralf, as you point out, just doesn't seem bothered. As for Yamamoto - in a perfect world anybody with more cash than talent shouldn't be anywhere near F1. Shame it's not a perfect world...
I heard Liuzzi was in contact with Williams for '08 - whether or not anything comes of this, we'll have to wait & see. I agree - it's a shame we appear to have lost Scott too.

[Ralf's Girl]

I think preferring Speed and Liuzzi to the drivers you've listed is a bit extreme.

In terms of drivers who have had their chance and haven't achieved anything, I think Fisichella has to be top of that list. I'm not quite sure what he's still doing in F1, especially considering Alonso completely destroyed him when they were team-mates. Likewise, I always raise an eyebrow at Trulli being able to hold down a drive year after year - he's always been known as a qualifying expert but he doesn't even seem to do that particularly well anymore. Granted, he's not helped by the Toyota, but I question what he's doing there. I think it's time for Barrichello to call it a day as well - it's a long time since he got any results of significance, the Honda is terminally slow and if it gets better next year a better driver would deserve the seat.

Drivers who I think are coming to the end but who have a bit of time left in them are Coulthard and Ralf. Coulthard's obviously getting on a bit, but as you say he's a good developer of a car - I think he would make an excellent team-mate for a young, quick driver who could then take on a role as team leader on his retirement. Ralf creates a few problems for me - everybody knows he can drive fast, and he can win races, which is why I would say he's not quite finished yet. The shame is that he doesn't always drive to the best of his ability, although perhaps if the Toyota improved we would see more from him.

And Sakon Yamamoto is undoubtedly a driver who should never, EVER, under any circumstances, be allowed anywhere near a Formula One car.

[BootsOntheSide]

Most of those names I'd agree with. Webber and DC are still doing a good job, Mark in particular has been let down by reliability this year. Whether Trulli deserves a seat depends largely on how bad Ralf is really driving, and how much is just the car. Hungary and a few other recent races have been better than Ralf, but he always shines at contract time and doesn't bother for the rest of the year.

[Aysedasi]

Michael Schumacher.......




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Why are you looking at me like that?




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Have I missed something?

[Sev]

I'm personally hoping at least half of that list is gone by 2008.

Aren't Webber and Coulthard re-signed already though?

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Sev

I'm personally hoping at least half of that list is gone by 2008.

Aren't Webber and Coulthard re-signed already though?

Yes. Trulli and Barrichello have contracts for next year, too.

[rcarr]

So if Liuzzi is talking to Williams, who is going from there? Wurz maybe back as a tester? I hope not, I like him, he is a Le Mans winner after all!
Rosberg to McLaren? I hope so, to replace the Spansh whinger. Rosberg needs a better car to sho how good he really is.

[Mathias]

This is a tricky one. I tend to err on the side of teams giving new blood a chance, and putting the older guys out to grass as soon as they stop putting the effort in and getting the results. It's hard this year because so many of the old guys are in real dogs of cars.

I was always a big fan of Fisichella, but his performance against Alonso in Renault wasn't inspiring, and it looks like he's going backwards this year while Heikki is improving (though not as fast as I'd expected). I reckon he's ready for the knackers' yard, alright.

I'm surprised at how often Alex Wurz is mentioned above - he seems to me to be showing Nico Rosberg the way in the Williams, and Nico is exactly the kind of young hot-shot we want to see more of in F1. Alex's nomination in the Big F1 Brother household is premature in my view.

I'm a big fan of DC, but not a big fan of Mark Webber, but I would say that neither deserves to be retired on the basis of their performances this year. The both seem to have been let down a lot by reliability. DC is darned quick on his day, despite his advancing years and the fact that he doesn't seem confident enough to use his own shaving products.

What I do believe, quite strongly, is that Jarno Trulli and Ralf Schumacher have been managing to pull the wool over our proverbials for years. They are very average, and when they go, they should frankly take their Toyota with them. None of them will be missed.

[Bluewolf]

Wurz has got to go --> being killed by Rosberg
DC should've gone --> Being killed by Webber
Fisi should go --> got to make room for big mouthed {but talented} Piquet
Ralph should probably go to a lesser team.
That's about it.

[maximus]

Originally Posted by Bluewolf

Wurz has got to go --> being killed by Rosberg
DC should've gone --> Being killed by Webber
Fisi should go --> got to make room for big mouthed {but talented} Piquet
Ralph should probably go to a lesser team.
That's about it.

Except that your first two sentences are inaccurate.

[OJB]

Interesting one really and I partly agree some room up top needs to start being made.

Wurz is a great racer when there are difficult circumstances and to be fair he has only retired twice this year (both times taken out), so his consistency does seem to pay off. Don't forget he is 9th in the standings and doing exactly what Williams needed after a dismal 2006. Solid, but perhaps needing more spark.

I actually reckon Fisichella in a Williams would work - I don't reckon that Renault is really any better than a Williams, but if he was getting those regular points in that he would be percieved as having a great season. Then again, I'm curious to see what Piquet can do.

Schumacher is picking up but is too hot and cold. Trulli though is a good driver - just a shame the Toyota race car isn't as good as his qualifying pace suggests. Trulli is a great qualifier but looks like a poor racer because the Toyota doesn't do well in race conditions. If its quick, so it Trulli as shown in 05.

DC and Webber are solid but hardly spectacular. Still, think they have a bit left in them. Barrichello just seems bored at Honda - losing motivation?

And Yamamoto - not as bad as everyone is making out! Not quite F1 quality maybe but not an embarassment all the same. Never that far off Sato in Aguri, and we don't want to see him gone!!

Same problem as always though - too many drivers, not enough seats!

[BootsOntheSide]

If you watch the result sheets, Wurz is outperforming Rosberg. If you watch the races, you'll see that the opposite is true. Time and again Nico has lost out due to poor reliability, mistimed safety cars, or being stuchk behind heavier cars. I don't think Wurz has outqualified him all season, and has usually gone out earlier in qualifying. Race pace is quite even, but I can't remember a team-mate points comparison flattering a driver this much (other than teams who score points once or twice in a season).

Webber and DC are more evenly matched; Mark is quicker in qualifying, which is no surprise, but for race pace DC is marginally better, although helped by being able to run long in the races more often. DC's car isn't breaking as often as Mark's either, which may be a fluke but poor reliability seems to follow Mark around. I think both RBR drivers richly deserve another year, although DC is less essential due to his age.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by maximus

Except that your first two sentences are inaccurate.

Max -- Surley you jest!!!

Here's the comparitive Wurz -- Rosberg Qualifying this year -- as far as the points go Wurz's finish in the crash laden Canadian Grand Prix is meaningless.

Qualifying ---------------------------- Wurz --Rosberg -Advantage

Australian 18 Mar 2007 Williams-Toyota --15 -----12 ----- Rosberg
Malaysian 8 Apr 2007 Williams-Toyota --19 ------ 6 --- Rosberg
Bahrain 15 Apr 2007 Williams-Toyota ----11------10 --- Rosberg
Spanish 13 May 2007 Williams-Toyota --18 -- ----11 --- Rosberg
Monaco 27 May 2007 Williams-Toyota --11------- 5 --- Rosberg
Canadian 10 Jun 2007 Williams-Toyota --19 ------ 7 --- Rosberg
United States 17 Jun 2007 Williams-Toyota --17 -- 14 --- Rosberg
French 1 Jul 2007 Williams-Toyota -------18 ------- 9 --- Rosberg
British 8 Jul 2007 Williams-Toyota ---------12 ------16 --- Wurz
European 22 Jul 2007 Williams-Toyota -----12 ----- 11 -- Rosberg
Hungarian 5 Aug 2007 Williams-Toyota --12 --------4 --- Rosberg

And look at some of the gaps between the two!!!

Again - same thing with DC versus Webber in qualifying

Qualifying ------------------------------ DC -Webber --Advantage
Australian 18 Mar 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 18 -- 7 ----- Webber
Malaysian 8 Apr 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 13 -- 10 ----- Webber
Bahrain 15 Apr 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 21 --- 8 ----- Webber
Spanish 13 May 2007 Red Bull-Renault --9 -- 19 ----- DC
Monaco 27 May 2007 Red Bull-Renault --13 -- 6 ----- Webber
Canadian 10 Jun 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 14 -- 6 ----- Webber
United States 17 Jun 2007 Red Bull -- 11 -- 9 ------- Webber
French 1 Jul 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 16 -- 14 ------- Webber
British 8 Jul 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 11 -- 10 ------ Webber
European 22 Jul 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 20 -- 6 ----- Webber
Hungarian 5 Aug 2007 Red Bull-Renault -- 10 -- 9 ----- Webber

And look at these gaps between the two!!!

[maximus]

Yes, qualifying, not RACE results.

For example, yes Wurz lucky Canadian finish aside, many of his races have been very strong, look at Monaco for example where he finished in the points, and Germany, even with the rain. His laptimes were very strong.

The same goes for DC, and with the problems he has had in many qualifying sessions, I wouldn't take those results, especially in the European and Bahrain to heart too much.

[LadySnowcat]

Hmmm...

Now is F1 about qualy...

Or the race....

Not sure that Matilda isn't a bit overrated...

Goldilocks (why on earth isn't he doing shampoo ads rather than the unbelievable shaving ones...) is quick and tres bright...in engineering too...the Williams twins Frank and Patrick love him.....

[Knowlesy]

The way i see it, Wurz has scored points with experience and just by being there at the end

Rosberg has scored his points on speed.

[Bluewolf]

Originally Posted by Knowlesy

The way i see it, Wurz has scored points with experience and just by being there at the end

Rosberg has scored his points on speed.

Exactly!

[flor]

but does it matter? points are points.

[BootsOntheSide]

You can gain experience, but you can't gain speed. Given the choice, I'd run Nico over Alex next year, no matter who the other driver was.

[Fletcher]

Originally Posted by Bluewolf

Here's the comparitive Wurz -- Rosberg Qualifying this year -- as far as the points go Wurz's finish in the crash laden Canadian Grand Prix is meaningless.

Meaningless? I very much suspect Nico wouldn't have been able to make the option tyre to last half a race as Alex did. Wurz was lucky in Canada, too, but his racecraft and mechanical sympathy are something that very few of the drivers have and shouldn't be overlooked this badly. If the choice was between Nico and Alex, I'd of course pick Nico, but in my opinion Williams should keep them both and run Alex with another young hotshot when Nico waves them goodbye.

[spider]

Nico has considerably more pace than Alex, but those 13 points he's stacked up over the season has helped put the team above Toyota and RBR, which given their budget is quite an achievement.

They make quite a good duo, yes Alex is painfully slow at times, but those showings in Canada and the Nurburgring were very impressive. Him and Nico seem to work well together too, which is surely helping the team stabilise after the Webber era.

Both drivers appear to be highly technical in their approach, which must be a dream for Sam Michael. Sam is someone I'm amazed still has a job after years of strange, slow and poor design concepts. Though this years car seems like it's a step in the right direction.

DC will be replaced in 09 by Bourdais or Vettel if they both perform well. Ralf is a waste of time, his pathetic performances at the start of the season only picked up when his future came into doubt. Sutil and Rosberg would be my pairing at Toyota...

Davidson has been underwhelming to say the least.

So, who would i boot out?

Ralf
Davidson
Fisichella (I love Fisi, but i've lost all confidence in him at Renault, maybe a move to a new team would help)
Rubens

Alex will be replaced though, if you read between the lines with the Williams press releases, they're not delighted with his pace.

[OZ_HCR32]

Originally Posted by BootsOntheSide

... but for race pace DC is marginally better, although helped by being able to run long in the races more often.

But surely the cars they are racing flatters DC? DC has had some terrible misfortune in practice and qualifying, and from time to time has been a little off in qualifying which means he is racing 5-6 spots further back then Webber.

I would imagine there is a lot more fresh air passing cars in 14th and racing up to the bumpers of cars ahead with a fuel load that was not compromised by being in the top 10. Where as Webber has often been in the Top 10, with whatever fuel load in traffic?!?!?!?!

So not saying i am right, but looking at the data and trying to get it to talk to you...well perhaps thats a reason why Webber doesnt have a more pace in races?!?!?!?! Just a thought


Has anyone been watching Davidsons progress this year? How has he been doing alongside Sato? I have always had a soft spot for Sato, considering when he started his career i always thought the guy was pretty talented, and up until the season where Honda were banned for a few races had done a pretty good job at Honda. So whilst many would expect Davidson to be far quicker...well im not too sure. But he does need to be quicker, convincingly if he wants his career to go anywhere.

As for Wurz, he always seems there when the chips are down or in difficult conditions. It cant be a coincidence. Maybe thats his real strength, driving in variable conditions, rather then shear pace?!?!?! The biggest thing is he admits he is having to work harder to match Rosbergs qualifying pace and is getting better. I like his attitude and how he goes about his racing. I think he deserves the extra season to find his feet. After all spending so many years testing, it must be hard to get back into the frame of mind that for every lap you have to be on it!??!?!

[Pro Racer]

IMO it seems Wurz's reliability and speed is hampered in quali and Rosbergs is in the race and ditto for DC and MW, and thats why it looks a like MW and Nico are putting their respective team mates to shame in qualy but losing out and racing badly, when if the reliability factor was taken out MW and Nico would be ahead of their team mates, so i think Nico has been good but not great ditto MW this seasonand these 2 are better than their respective team mates but the resaults card dosn't show it.

[NAC]

Guys this one is really simple. The other thread "Classifying current F1 drivers" lists them. Grab the bottom 5 to 8, there is your list.

http://tentenths.com/forum/showthread.php?t=99179


Giancarlo Fisichella
David Coulthard
Takuma Sato
Ralf Schumacher
Anthony Davidson
Vitantonio Liuzzi
Alexander Wurz
Sakon Yamamoto