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17 Jun 2020, 08:12 (Ref:3988360) | #26 | |||
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Replacing the 5.0L engine with a turbocharged ~2.0L engine that produces the same 635hp but more efficiently (even without a hybrid system) could be one way to embrace the downsized future. It would allow you to save about 50-70kg of weight on the front end of the car too (between a cast iron V8 and an alloy-block I4), quite the handling improvement! Here is an example of a ~600hp Ford Ecoboost inline-four engine: https://www.hotrod.com/articles/make...ost-read-find/ As in the Group A days when there was Sierra, 240, Starion, and DR30 Skyline with inline-fours, these kinds of engines sound great and are very fast and exciting indeed. It would be welcome return back to the turbocharged future that seemed so bright in the 1980s, before the (arguably) regressive ban on turbocharging in the 1993 ATCC came along. For "no replacement for displacement" advocates, when downsize turbocharging seemed inevitable back in 1990, you've instead been able to delay it for 30 years! So you've already done rather well! |
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17 Jun 2020, 08:47 (Ref:3988361) | #27 | |
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A four-cylinder format may be the best chance of attracting a second manufacturer. (When I say the turbo four should be more efficient, I mean modern direct-injection, ultra lean combustion, high compression and so on should allow quite big gains in thermal efficiency compared to the current port injected 10:1 engines and thus allow for completing the races on less fuel. A more modern N/A engine would also have many of these advantages.)
Since the Toyota Supra comes with a four-cylinder option, the German coupes all have a four-cylinder, the Hyundai Genesis G70 sedan has a turbo four cylinder, as does the Alfa Romeo Giulia sedan, Mazda are rumoured to be working on RWD sedan or coupe on a shared platform with Toyota and Lexus... There might need to be two different chassis for each coupe and sedan. But you only need one more manufacturer in addition to Ford and it should be OK. |
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17 Jun 2020, 10:33 (Ref:3988362) | #28 | ||
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Yeah, the manufacturers factor is a bit worrying for the time being but Supercars are still not as factory-dependant sport as the DTM for example, which faces a huge crisis after withdrawal of Audi. In Supercars it's a bit different. As you guys say, there are still areas to work on and the advantage of Supercars is, that even despite TCR Australia's existence, Supercars still is the top motorsport series in Australia. It doesn't have the same problems as DTM, for example. I may be a bit too optimistic about it but I really believe Supercars in not on its deathbed and it can still thrive. |
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17 Jun 2020, 14:25 (Ref:3988363) | #29 | |
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The problem with Gen 3 is what car(s) is it going to be built around, that is the biggest mystery. Optimism at this time is to be applauded as most onlookers are cautious with very little optimism.
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18 Jun 2020, 02:19 (Ref:3988364) | #30 | ||
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Part of the issues fans have to do with Supercars is the politics of it and the way the organisation in charge has conducted itself and run the series and treated motor racing fans over the years.
The spectacle of big RWD V8 sedans themselves has never really been questioned Quote:
Not to mention in 1985 we had 1st and 2nd on the same lap at the end, something that had only happened in a Hardie once in the preceding seven years under Group C rules |
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18 Jun 2020, 04:24 (Ref:3988365) | #31 | |||
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I'd say the biggest issue fans have (either casual or hardcore fans) is the TV broadcast deal, something Ive said the entire time was a mistake. But given the rock and hardplace Supercars (and the rest of televised sports) find themselves in, I think most fans would forgive Supercars if they are forced back into a similar (although reduced) deal this time. Its then up to Supercars to save themselves from themselves by making the sport far more financially sustainable. |
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The Jerk Store rang... |
19 Jun 2020, 03:34 (Ref:3988366) | #32 | |
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I know I have been harping on it but that is not the core issue, they can reduce the costs to zero but out there in the real world if it has no commercial future then it is a dead duck. If SC can demonstrate to both the teams and the media companies that they have a sustainable product with good long term prospects and the teams can be rewarded adequatly meaning a good ROI then they will never have a problem selling RECS. The goose that laid the golden egg (television free or paid) appears to be on life support so the prime source of funding has disappeared and that instantly means the commercial reality took a big deep nose dive.
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20 Jun 2020, 04:41 (Ref:3988367) | #33 | ||
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All you done is demonstrate that supercars fans aren't actual motor racing fans. Therefore, their opinions should not be considered when it comes to wider Australian motorsport issues. Like giving ATCC status to the TCR series. Supercars fans don't care, so CAMS/MA may as well hand it to the most authentic touring cars series in Australia. |
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20 Jun 2020, 05:20 (Ref:3988368) | #34 | |||||||
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Nope.
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The promotor may own more than half the cars, but they're only putting their money where their mouth is. To attract meaningful tv coverage nowadays, as something more substantial than amateur racing, ARG have to prop up the initial running. Your posts on this topic make it out like this is a big deal when it isn't Quote:
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Manufacturer involvement in motorsport has always been fluid. TCR enables participants to use a wider number of cars even if they don't have manufacturer support. TCR Australia, for whatever weakness your so keen to point out, is as much about smaller car racing reestablishing itself in Australia as it is about anything else. It had a great debut season. There was a lot of goodwill amongst many Australian motor racing fans. Quote:
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Either way, 3 serious teams is enough for a substantial series. It's pretty much every series in the world for decades. The rest can be plucky underdogs racing for their own purpose. As opposed to guys who are not good enough to be midfield in F1, and most not good enough to be in an F1 field, racing as "professionals". |
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20 Jun 2020, 05:40 (Ref:3988369) | #35 | |||||
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It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the secnnd best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport. It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars. WTCR doesn't matter in Australia. All that matters in Australia is that there's an outlet for smaller cars in Australia. Which btw are now big cars cars. 2 litre cars in Australia are now big cars. Anything above 2 litre is antiquated. Quote:
Minor importance? I'll copy & post the above quote. It's not a poor national championship as it's already the second best series. If you see the second best series as poor, then it's a bad reflection on how you see motorsport. It's second to supercars with a lot of upside. In comparison, supercars had reached its ceiling decades ago. TCR is a series that may have saved Will Brown's career before it had a chance to flounder in supercars. Quote:
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20 Jun 2020, 06:01 (Ref:3988370) | #36 | ||
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Referring to Group A as "slow" just shows a lack of knowledge and perspective. Looking up the 1984 & 85 Bathurst shootout results, the Group A cars were only on average a few seconds slower than the last of Group C. There's absolutely no way anyone would've notice the difference. "Naked cars" are just cars. People who like motor racing are interested in them. That being the case, you obviously approve of super touring as a premier class. As they were as fast as the last of Group C at the mountain, with the disadvantage of having to do the chase. On another note. It's not big deal if Australia continued to use Group C and avoid Group A. The change was made to defer the responsibility of homologation away from CAMS to the FIA |
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20 Jun 2020, 06:08 (Ref:3988371) | #37 | ||
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Whose sock puppet are you
Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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20 Jun 2020, 06:18 (Ref:3988372) | #38 | |
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While you may be allowed to personally insult me. Where am I wrong?
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20 Jun 2020, 06:22 (Ref:3988373) | #39 | ||
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Well you tell me the terms are subjective and then that I am wrong.
Group A got faster and sexier but in 1985 it was neither. My point of view is irrelevant. I was asked if "anybody" didn't like it when Group A took over. People didn't. The cars were more plain, less reliable, and there were lots of cars people didn't see on the roads. These are facts. Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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20 Jun 2020, 11:15 (Ref:3988374) | #40 | |
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"Sexy" is a subjective term.
Even within Group C. The Commodore was looked milder compared to the A9x Torana. Were people complaining about the Commodore? Then as far as Ford is concerned, it's the reverse. The XC Falcon was a big ugly car compared to the XD and particularly XE. Noisy? How much quieter could the Group A car could possibly have been? The performance of the cars were inconsequential as no one would've been able to tell the difference. I don't know of any substantial evidence that Group A were less reliable, to the point where it detracted from following the ATCC and/or Bathurst. The cars may have looked plain in comparison to Group C. Even then, Group A sped up the process of the road Group C would eventually have to go down. There would've been a point where the 3 litre class would have to be the main class, or chop down Class A from 6 to 4 litres. But then eventually it would go to 3 then 2 litres. There were cars that people didn't see on the roads. But TCR doesn't have this problem. Supercars is an odd case where the competing cars were the most relevant on Australian roads, to becoming the most irrelevant. The Commodore and Falcon have also been irrelevant for some time, it's not a new realisation. In the case of TCR. Even if some of the competing cars are not popular, or popular cars are not participating like the Corolla, the fact they're 2 litre cars makes them relevant. Supercars doesn't even have a relevant set of regs. Therefore the original question is not premature. |
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20 Jun 2020, 11:47 (Ref:3988375) | #41 | ||
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It is premature, if ARG ceased to function today, TCR in Australia is dead. TCR here right is a balloon ARG has pumped up.
If Supercars the organisation disappeared, the teams still exist and can put on a show. Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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20 Jun 2020, 12:43 (Ref:3988376) | #42 | ||
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Sorry this thread is pointless !
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GO Hard or GO Home |
20 Jun 2020, 12:52 (Ref:3988377) | #43 | ||
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20 Jun 2020, 16:45 (Ref:3988378) | #44 | ||
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Group A proved infinitely far more reliable than Group C right from the off in 1985 |
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20 Jun 2020, 23:58 (Ref:3988379) | #45 | |||
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49 cars started the '85 James Hardie 1000. 23 were classified as finishers. You do the math, but marginally but be a better description than infinitely |
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"Your biggest auto race may one day become a Camaro playground", Chris Economaki, Bathurst 1979 |
21 Jun 2020, 01:27 (Ref:3988380) | #46 | ||
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Supercars organisations disappeared, what "show" is supercars going to put on? If both Supercars and ARG disappeared. All that would happen is MA takes responsibility of both categories, then what do you think is going to happen? With TCR (Representing 2 litre racing), MA won't be abandoning it. They saw last year "Hang on, people like these cars and want to see them racing. It might not be as well known as supercars. But there's something in this that's worthwhile to keep going anyway." They saw last year that TCR solves a lot of problems. Commercial potential/value, flexibility with scheduling, something a wider amount of competitors can aspire to. A class that people like, and have goodwill towards. Last year, TCR managed to do something extraordinary in the history of Australian motorsport. They managed to get people (As in, a substantial amount of people), to come to a Shannons Nationals round! Do you know how hard that is? It's really, really hard. A stand alone Super2-3 couldn't do it. GT racing with the big name supercars drivers don't attract anyone to SN rounds. Yet people turned up to SN TCR rounds? (It might not have been the 4 billion people that turn up to supercars rounds, but people turned up off their own accord.) More people would've turned up to last year's SN rounds than for the previous 14 years combined. MA/ARG would've been happy if their attendance last year happened in a few years from now. They're going "Who are these people, and where have they come from??? These people did not show up in our focus group studies?" With supercars, all you can do it cut costs. You cut expenses to the point where the pre-Cochrane ATCC actually looks pretty good (An ATCC that supercars names don't hide in taking a **** on). The only thing you can do with Supercars is turn it into the best field ever in Super 3 history. NZ? CHOP!. Townsville? CHOP! Newcastle? CHOP! Darwin? Stay of execution, but the axe is ready? Gold Coast? CHOP! Adelaide? CHOP! (Should become an Indycar round now anyway) Expensive, antiquated and outdated regs. No flexibility. A series that exists to maintain a clique. Little goodwill. I wonder what magical car Gen 3 is going to be? |
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21 Jun 2020, 05:10 (Ref:3988381) | #47 | ||
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What you say about the regs, fine.
But ARG owns most or all of the cars in this country and is still paying the bills. Come make this suggestion when there are actual standalone teams and not just the second year in a row of contracted exhibition races as a fishing expedition. Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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21 Jun 2020, 06:53 (Ref:3988382) | #48 | ||
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21 Jun 2020, 07:50 (Ref:3988383) | #49 | |||
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I would suggest when the money stops MPC's Audi will go back home. Not sure they will sell any cars now that VAG is out and there will be no further development. Sent from my SM-G975F using Tapatalk |
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21 Jun 2020, 23:20 (Ref:3988384) | #50 | |
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How many of the classified finishers in 1984 were Group A cars though?
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