How much slower next year?

**Adam43** · 15 Sep 2005, 19:17 (Ref:1408767)

How much slower will the 2006 cars be when compared to the 2005 cars?

Let's get this in early before we learn too much about next years cars. A fun little poll with no real point. The rights and wrongs of the changes are discussed elsewhere. Let us keep this to the actual practicalities of the changes.

Chose your speed change and say why it will be that different. What aspects of car design and development will shape this and how much?

We have to chose a way to measure this. So we shall go for the begining of the season. The first GP. I am worried that rule changes will mess up the measurement. We shall chose practice. We shall take the average fastest time from a race driver over Friday's sessions. This is chosen as, at the moment, it looks like a Saturday session might be used to determine the qualifying order and it rained on Saturday at Melborne this year. If we have rain then back up sessions (or the next GP) will be used. For reference the average of the fastest race driver times from Friday's practice sessions was 86.5505s.

The poll is to the nearest second and ranges from over 8.5 seconds slower to over 2.5 seconds faster.

Marbot · 15 Sep 2005, 19:25 (Ref:1408777)

I voted +5 but it didn't register Adam.

maximus · 15 Sep 2005, 19:30 (Ref:1408781)

I'd say 4, but as martyn (I think!) said somewhere else, I reckon it will be around 2 by the end of the year.

**Adam43** · 15 Sep 2005, 19:31 (Ref:1408784)

It is the somewhere else that prompted the thread!

martyn, I was probably still editting it, try again.

**garcon** · 15 Sep 2005, 19:42 (Ref:1408793)

I reckon they'll only be 2 seconds slower - certainly by the second half of the season.

**Adam43** · 15 Sep 2005, 19:49 (Ref:1408798)

I reckon about 2s slower. I think this is the level the loss of power will be offset by the improvement in packaging and the natural development in F1.

It might be a little more than that at first, but we must expect the teams to be on a steeper learning curve at first. There is the potential for bigger gains at the begining.

Louis B. · 15 Sep 2005, 20:00 (Ref:1408805)

Let see: We currently have 300cl; 18,500 rpm; 10 cyl while we will have 250 cl (IIRC); 22,000 rpm (accrding to N. Haug) and 8 cylinders next year. This means:

18,500 X 10 = 185,000
22,000 X 8 = 176,000
176,000 / 185,000 x 100 = 95% i.e V8 5% slower;
average lap time in 2005: 1'30" or 90 sec.
5% X 90 sec. = 4.5 seconds
Martyn Bott being more knowledgeable than I am, say: the V8 will be 5 seconds slower per lap on average than its equivalent V10 for a given team

P.S. a similar result could be achieved with logarithms but it's a bit more complicated

Tec-Mec 60 · 15 Sep 2005, 20:06 (Ref:1408812)

lol well that seems right so far louis, de la rosa was 5 seconds off wurz yesterday

Louis B. · 15 Sep 2005, 20:11 (Ref:1408815)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tec-Mec 60

lol well that seems right so far louis, de la rosa was 5 seconds off wurz yesterday

I knew Martyn must have had taken that figure from someone else's copy. He always did that when he was at school.

Pingguest · 15 Sep 2005, 20:17 (Ref:1408825)

On Monza it will be about eight seconds, in Monaco hardly two seconds. Montreal will be interesting. There's a chance that the champcars will be faster than the Formula 1-cars.

BootsOntheSide · 15 Sep 2005, 20:25 (Ref:1408832)

Don't those numbers assume that the car is permenantly accelerating? Surely the real gap would be between (say) 1.5 and 3 seconds, depending on how power-hungry the circuit is, and how far through the season we are?

Louis B. · 15 Sep 2005, 20:30 (Ref:1408834)

See Adam first post.

runshaw · 15 Sep 2005, 20:50 (Ref:1408855)

I voted 2 seconds, but it will be different at different circuits.

Big-O · 15 Sep 2005, 21:03 (Ref:1408861)

Just about every FIA-try to make the cars slower has faild up to now ... So I say one sek. faster than this year(just to be diffrent to the rest

)

runshaw · 15 Sep 2005, 21:07 (Ref:1408865)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big-O

Just about every FIA-try to make the cars slower has faild up to now ...

Good point. By the end of the year the ingenius engineers will have probably found a way to make the cars go 8 seconds quicker per lap!

ASCII Man · 15 Sep 2005, 21:31 (Ref:1408880)

I think in the early parts of the season the cars would be about 5 seconds slower, and probably break even with present pace at the start of the season after next...

Just a guess...

Marbot · 16 Sep 2005, 00:02 (Ref:1408957)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Louis B.

I knew Martyn must have had taken that figure from someone else's copy. He always did that when he was at school.

I never did!

Spritle · 16 Sep 2005, 00:37 (Ref:1408965)

We all assume that they will get back the lost speed but what IF they don’t? Nobody expected Ferrari would be 3 second off their 2004 pace and unable to gain much back throughout an almost full season. The V8’s may be 4-6 sec off the 2005 pace ALL season. What IF F1 becomes the slower of the two major open wheel road course series, (assuming Champ/CART is the other).

How would you feel?

I for one would be EXTREMELY disappointed since to me speed is everything when it comes to racing. A slower product with less expensive standardized cars is…well…

…not what I expect from the “Pinnacle of Motorsport”.

The only difference between CART and F1 in the future may just be the venues and if you ask me other than Monza & Monaco the new circuits are no better or worse that what CART races on excluding ovals of course.

Bernie & Co. are really messing this thing up IMHO.

mixxer · 16 Sep 2005, 06:52 (Ref:1409043)

Its a bit harsh taking it from the first round of the season with new engines as I'm sure there will be more mechanical questions to be answered before any team will push for outright speed but if thats the poll then I'm going for 3 secs slower, by mid season or there abouts Id say they will be within a few tenths if not quicker.
Remember the final year of Turbos, in excess of 1000HP for qualifying yet the cars just got progressively quicker each year.
HP isn't everything you know.

**Adam43** · 16 Sep 2005, 08:14 (Ref:1409107)

Quote:

Originally Posted by mixxer

Its a bit harsh taking it from the first round of the season...

I do agree, although I'm not sure we'll as big a gain as you guess. Taking an early view on it at the begining of the season and then looking back again at the end of the season will give us a good insight into the rate of development of a new idea.

SpawnyWhippet · 16 Sep 2005, 08:17 (Ref:1409111)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritle

I for one would be EXTREMELY disappointed since to me speed is everything when it comes to racing. A slower product with less expensive standardized cars is…well…

…not what I expect from the “Pinnacle of Motorsport”.

To me, outright top speed is almost irrelevant; as long as its greater than 150mph, I don't really care. Of far more importance to me is that they accelerate, brake and corner quickly. Flat out in a straight line is pretty boring.

Marbot · 16 Sep 2005, 08:26 (Ref:1409119)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spritle

I for one would be EXTREMELY disappointed since to me speed is everything when it comes to racing. A slower product with less expensive standardized cars is…well…

I would imagine that the average lap time/speed of an F1 car is already below that of Champcars and IRL cars simply because of the nature of the circuits used.They all do road coarses,but F1 doesn't do ovals unless you count Indy (please don't count Indy!).So i would imagine that the IRL is the fastest (on average) motorsport in the world.But for me that doesn't detract anything from F1 simply because it is F1.

mixxer · 16 Sep 2005, 10:00 (Ref:1409162)

Quote:

although I'm not sure we'll as big a gain as you guess

Well it is just a guess

IMHO if doesnt happen in the first season with the new spec engines it will just happen later, its the nature of the beast that is F1

Quote:

Taking an early view on it at the begining of the season and then looking back again at the end of the season will give us a good insight into the rate of development of a new idea.

True

BootsOntheSide · 16 Sep 2005, 10:16 (Ref:1409170)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andydickens

To me, outright top speed is almost irrelevant; as long as its greater than 150mph, I don't really care. Of far more importance to me is that they accelerate, brake and corner quickly. Flat out in a straight line is pretty boring.

Agreed, the sensation of rapid acceleration is the big thign to me. Faster braking is a bad thign for the quality of racing, as it makes overtaking such much harder. If the speed of the cars is the most improtant thing, surely dragster racing is the pinnacle of motorsports?

**Adam43** · 16 Sep 2005, 10:48 (Ref:1409193)

Which gives a great sensation of rapid acceleration

Overall I agree, top speed irrelevant. Although I'd take Andydickens point a bit further. I think it is nice they hit 200mph and some corners aren't flat at 150mph

View Poll Results: How much slower will the '06 cars be relative to the '05 cars
> +8.5 seconds (slower)	1	1.67%
+8	0	0%
+7	1	1.67%
+6	1	1.67%
+5	6	10.00%
+4	7	11.67%
+3	20	33.33%
+2	14	23.33%
+1	3	5.00%
0 the same	3	5.00%
-1 (faster!)	2	3.33%
-2 (faster!)	1	1.67%
< -2.5 seconds (faster!)	1	1.67%
Voters: 60. You may not vote on this poll

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