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Old 22 Aug 2018, 00:35 (Ref:3845303)   #51
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One subject that has been questioned is the UK driving licence, which each have a blue EU symbol in the top left corner that currently enables Britons to drive freely within the EU and European Economic Area (EEA), but all this will change after Brexit.
All licences will eventually have to be replaced to remove the EU symbol and likely, the privileges attached to it.
Also I only renewed my passport the other week so probably a load more aggro and expense !
under the old, pre-EU agreement all that was required was to carry a translation of the driving licence in several European languages. Or you could get an International licence from the AA for a fiver IIRC. Hardly rocket science. I suspect this agreement still exists under the UN umbrella.
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 06:37 (Ref:3845323)   #52
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My starting of this thread was not a vent or a need to show any political stance but a genuine attempt to ask what the near future holds for our pretty trivial place in the great scheme of things.
Now consider if you are someone with a real, important job, a farmer say, they must be really concerned.
Whatever the rights or wrongs, whatever the upside or the downside what really really worries me is that in March things are going to change and no one that I have talked to (and certainly none of the bobble heads we see and hear from in the media) appear to have any clue as to how those instantaneous changes are going to affect us. What was happening before we joined the EU was the culmination of many many years of experience, we are about to enact change literally, it would appear, overnight.
My immediate concern is, hardly surprisingly, about me, my sport, my business and my employees.
And in the great scheme of things we really don't amount to a hill of beans.
Just saying.

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Old 22 Aug 2018, 06:45 (Ref:3845326)   #53
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TMy starting of this thread was not a
Losing the will to finish things off Simon?
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 06:46 (Ref:3845327)   #54
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Simon, I think you were expressing a concern that the political leaders are not exactly demonstrating an understanding of the issues. And if so, I agree.


Trouble is the arguments for and against have become the driving force, whereas if we had all accepted the result then it would just be a case of getting on with it.
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 07:25 (Ref:3845331)   #55
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No I'm not! Sod the f*****g politicians of all and every bent, all I want is that the body that represents me and my sport to tell me, and every other licence holder, what they know, what the current state of play is and how they see the likely developments over the next couple of years.
Or in fact any competent adult would do.

This is probably why they ask for an ECG, in case something explodes!
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 07:48 (Ref:3845334)   #56
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The truth of the matter is they don’t know and neither do the people who are supposed to be sorting it out. As part of my day job I attended a meeting with a member of the steering committee who are advising the Govt a couple of months ago in the vain hope that I could glean some practical info as to what is going to happen in March and beyond. All that we were told was that it was clearly set out in the PM’s Mansion House (?) Speech, which must have passed me by ???

Must be why multinationals have relocation plans, Formula E have an emergency evacuation plan in place & can relocate to Europe in 24 hours if necessary.
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 10:25 (Ref:3845351)   #57
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As I have said this is all to heavy going for me. Has anyone asked the MSA the question.
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3845369)   #58
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I think the answer is that nobody will know how things are likely to develop and the 2 year "exit" period after making the formal application was never intended to used. It was, in effect, a an unrealistic expectation that allowed an apparent option to depart but was never expected to be used - other than as a factor in people deciding it was not enough time and so it would be better to stay.


So in the end everything comes down to how "reasonable" the various parties can be during what will be a transition period whether that is how it is officially described and named or not. At least at the political and bureaucratic level.


At the legal level reasonableness may not be something one can rely upon.


I can't image that any of the bodies of authority in motor sport could possibly provide any sort of authoritative guidance in that respect other than any legal requirements that are specific to motor sport in a specific country are likely to remain as they are providing no legal precedent is undone by the process.


Sadly being in that position helps no one to make decisions with predictable outcomes at this time. Or at least that's how it seems to me.
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 12:50 (Ref:3845374)   #59
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That’s pretty much the picture as I see it Grant!
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 13:04 (Ref:3845376)   #60
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I think that as far as the FIA is concerned it's pretty simple. If you're not a member of the EU you can only take part in registered International events in other countries. They never wanted the National A/NEAFP route in the first place, it was foisted upon them by the EU.

I don't know the situation of events organised by UK Clubs overseas, but I'm pretty sure there are some e.g. kart clubs run by the RAF that organise "closed to club" MSA races in foreign climes. So there should be nothing legally stopping a UK organiser setting up races for UK licence Clubman/Nat B/NAT A holders, they just can't bring along any European drivers to bolster numbers. Whether that remains financially viable is yet to be seen.

That's my understanding, I may be wrong.



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Old 22 Aug 2018, 19:35 (Ref:3845445)   #61
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Interesting thread. Isn't this more of a threat to motorsport than Brexit?

https://www.acu.org.uk/news/2018/07/...sue-an-update/

Who instigated this? Answers on a postcard please!!

Need anymore reasons to get out of this EU club??
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 20:04 (Ref:3845448)   #62
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Odd that that latest info hasn’t been reported elsewhere. You’d have thought it would have been in all the motorsport press? Quick google finds only a response from the insurance industry..... https://www.insurancetimes.co.uk/ind...427248.article

‘Unworkable and Unfair’.... Sounds about right.

Going back to brexit, Beeb regional TV news suggested this eve that the government are publishing (soon) advice documents for various industries.....

Can’t wait!
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 20:11 (Ref:3845450)   #63
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I think that as far as the FIA is concerned it's pretty simple. If you're not a member of the EU you can only take part in registered International events in other countries. They never wanted the National A/NEAFP route in the first place, it was foisted upon them by the EU.

Sorry, but I am not sure you are right. If you read the Bluebook, it clearly states that it is "EU plus comparable countries" (H26.2.2). It then refers back to a point where I was hoping to find what a comparable country is, but it appears not to be defined.

But I would assume that comparable countries might include Switzerland and Norway. Has anyone ever competed in either of these countries with a Nat A? Or know anyone from Switzerland or Norway who competes here or in Europe?

If this is the case, then all that is required is for the ASNs in Europe to add a post-Brexit UK to their list of comparable countries. It would be no particular business of the FIA would it? It is in teh gift of the ASNs. The doom and gloom argument goes that the pesky Europeans might chose not to. Well they might, but I suspect the prospect of losing the permit fees and whole invited grids might cause them second thoughts.

But above all this is Simon's point that it would be helpful to know now what is going to happen, which is dead right. But as said above, there is little prospect of progress while we are rerunning the referendum and the fact that no European negotiations ever come up with a solution until 5 to midnight, that is how it works
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Old 22 Aug 2018, 20:53 (Ref:3845457)   #64
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But above all this is Simon's point that it would be helpful to know now what is going to happen, which is dead right. But as said above, there is little prospect of progress while we are rerunning the referendum and the fact that no European negotiations ever come up with a solution until 5 to midnight, that is how it works

Since the entire EU Exit process has never been run before and nobody can really offer any meaningful advice until it there is some sort of agreement on their area of interest (or perhaps "competence" in EU terminology) it is probably unsurprising that a waiting game has developed.



And the 5 to midnight observation, despite the potentially enormous workload of "stuff" to put into place, is probably inevitable no matter how much one might have expected a more realistic approach to planning would have been adopted.


Then there is Robyn's interesting point and the potential for that insurance angle to make the rest of the concerns somewhat moot, at least in the short term until people come to their senses (hopefully).


Of course the two matters together offers the UK an interesting opportunity to go its own way, eliminate the insurance requirement threat from a motor sport perspective and invite EU competitors to continue to use their licences to race in the UK just as they do now. After all, they may have nowhere else to go! (Apart from hillclimbs in Switzerland(?) and possibly events in Norway providing they don't enforce 100% EV only legislation in the next year or so.)



And of course I am assuming that all road, sea and air transport has not in any case ground to a halt due to Brexit or the extended requirements of vehicle insurance within the EU.


So whilst it is disappointing that "governing" bodies appear to have nothing to say as deadlines apparently loom, it may not be surprising. Indeed, in particular cases where the EU is involved and especially if the UK government has a direct role in the process, it is probably to be expected. Sadly.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 05:41 (Ref:3845489)   #65
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Sorry, but I am not sure you are right. If you read the Bluebook, it clearly states that it is "EU plus comparable countries" (H26.2.2). It then refers back to a point where I was hoping to find what a comparable country is, but it appears not to be defined.

But I would assume that comparable countries might include Switzerland and Norway. Has anyone ever competed in either of these countries with a Nat A? Or know anyone from Switzerland or Norway who competes here or in Europe?

If this is the case, then all that is required is for the ASNs in Europe to add a post-Brexit UK to their list of comparable countries. It would be no particular business of the FIA would it? It is in teh gift of the ASNs. The doom and gloom argument goes that the pesky Europeans might chose not to. Well they might, but I suspect the prospect of losing the permit fees and whole invited grids might cause them second thoughts.

But above all this is Simon's point that it would be helpful to know now what is going to happen, which is dead right. But as said above, there is little prospect of progress while we are rerunning the referendum and the fact that no European negotiations ever come up with a solution until 5 to midnight, that is how it works
No need to apologise. I missed that.

Your scenario is excellent and recognises that clubs make good money from cross border entries. Hopefully common sense will apply but there may be a period while these things shake out.

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Old 23 Aug 2018, 08:05 (Ref:3845498)   #66
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Naturally the EUcrats do not like anyone resigning from their club, with a resultant loss of income, and will put every possible obstacle in the way to deter similar events. Frexit!

The only sensible answer for the UK is a hard Brexit, as this will also be a hard landing for the rest of the plonkers across the Channel. We will manage better without them than they will without us, we contribute too much in most aspects of the Union. Defence, policing, etc. )Money of course)

We punch well above our weight in practical terms, yet have little influence on decision making being just one of 27 (?).

They can keep their cross ants, and …. something about where the Sun don't shine.

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Old 23 Aug 2018, 08:17 (Ref:3845501)   #67
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About licence and considering the question of Swiss people, all Swiss I know of and competing at a large and international scale have an International Licence with accompanying letter issued every year and must complete full medical checks accordingly.

Altogether and reading this thread it has become apparent that many are not aware of much when it comes to Europe and agreements that are in place. One must not think Schengen is everything as this concerns people, then comes the AELE, EFTA and so on.

Goods are different but again Switzerland can be a good example, I moved there recently and came from an EU country no other than France. Basically I believe you guys must understand that all trading between EU and Switzerland are ruled through a series of billateral agreement which started in the 70s and are negotiated every once in a while depending on where one wants to go or how one wants to protect its own economy mainly. But altogether, it's expensive to import anything here, that's the main word.

When it comes to motor sport, movement is fine when it goes back and forth but real trouble starts with import and exports which can have a huge economic impact on the final bill and customer and that is what one must see with Brexit.

The movement will be alright and processes just like Carnet and Packing Lists will get back, it's pretty straightforward but Brexit may result in taxes when it comes to import but also for mainland EU and therefore, it's a whole line or just like dominos if made simple, why would I chose to be impacted by taxes when I can find another supplier within the existing system? Best example being at the last Oldtimer GP where there was an advert offering space for companies wishing to relocate on mainland EU in the programme, guess why...

What I think will be interesting will be post 2019, more like 2021 and to be looked at, the Formula One industry.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 12:32 (Ref:3845549)   #68
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Thanks for posting that perspective!

So we need to prepared (if no deal) as racers wishing to compete in Europe by having an International C or Historic licence, and the MSA need to be ready to issue said accompanying letter. That shouldn’t be too difficult, we’ve been there before, I think?

Movement between U.K. and French / Spanish ports will likely require extra documents- carnet, CMR or whatever, but what about when crossing borders by road- France into Belgium, for instance? Not even sure I’d know where to go to get a carnet stamped......

The first 25 (of possible 80) government guidance documents for industry are published today, but haven’t found on line yet. Doubt there will be one specifically for motorsport.....
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 12:42 (Ref:3845552)   #69
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What happebs to goods and people who are non EU and cross inter EU state borders now?

Nothing. As it happens Albanians (non EU) can drive all through the EU freely once they cross the border. I am only speaking from current experience. I believe it applies to services also. You pay at the initial border then there should be no further checks or charges. From a security aspect it's one of the reasons why many folks want to leave.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 12:58 (Ref:3845554)   #70
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OK, so just at the channel ports then. For ‘them’ as well as ‘us’. No wonder the concern over the current customs facilities being able to cope....
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 14:54 (Ref:3845573)   #71
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Goods imported and properly customs cleared into the EU can be moved within the entire EU without further customs procedure
THAT, was and is the point the Common Market....

Meaning if You are a private citizen You can shunt Your belongings around the EU to Your hearts content. I write this as an EU citizen, but it applies to visitors also.

However, if as an EU citizen You run a business and ships goods cross an EU border or provide services across an EU border, the VAT ID procedure kicks in.
Still meaning no customs procedure at the border, buuuut, You have to oderly file away proof of delivery if You shipped on a bill without VAT.
Sounds complicated but is simple, just needed to prevent VAT fraud.
This wont apply to UK origin anymore after Brexit.

You can bring stuff into the EU uncleared but registered by customs /duty not paid, and store in bonded warehouse either for reexport or later duty payment. Controls of this are very tight and not workable for racecars. Buut, its used by a lot by importers. This can, within reason ease the inevitable congestions in the channel ports somewhat.

Passport controls are another matter entirely.
Between the Schengen states (a central European EU subgroup) there are no passport controls, currently. This is really meant for Schengen state citizens. Travellers from outside Schengen or outside could get checked but usually are not.

EU citizens can travel freely with EU, and while the passports might get checked they can not be refused entry. This is one of the reasons why Brexit happened.

How freely non EU citizen can travel in EU depends on what kind of visa You have (if required) of if You are refugee with no visa or no passport, of what other agreements might be in place between You home country and EU.
This stuff tends to be reciprocal. So if You home country denies freedom of travel to EU citizens, EU tends to mirror that and demand similar requirements or impose similar restrictions, or vice versa.

My prediction is: expect as much freedom of movement in EU (or lack of it)as UK is prepared to offer EU citizens. From what I read, opinion in UK is very divided on this.

RuE
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 15:07 (Ref:3845575)   #72
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Goods imported and properly customs cleared into the EU can be moved within the entire EU without further customs procedure
THAT, was and is the point the Common Market...

RuE
Yes, I was a being a bit thick there.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 20:54 (Ref:3845639)   #73
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How freely non EU citizen can travel in EU depends on what kind of visa You have (if required) of if You are refugee with no visa or no passport, of what other agreements might be in place between You home country and EU.
Ah ha!

So if one was to "identify" as a refugee being persecuted for some sort of personal identity crisis, possibly related to any one of a number of physical or hormonal imbalances or, maybe, the trauma of being a party to some sort of inter-human physical violence not seen in the "developed" world for a generation or so, then the restrictions one might expect could perhaps be turned to advantage? Especially if you are familiar with the various countries agreements with the EU and can pick a suitable "home" country from the list.

I think one might be able to move about without too many checks so long as one was not driving a UK registered vehicle.

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Old 23 Aug 2018, 21:07 (Ref:3845643)   #74
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Ah ha!

So if one was to "identify" as a refugee being persecuted for some sort of personal identity crisis, possibly related to any one of a number of physical or hormonal imbalances or, maybe, the trauma of being a party to some sort of inter-human physical violence not seen in the "developed" world for a generation or so, then the restrictions one might expect could perhaps be turned to advantage? Especially if you are familiar with the various countries agreements with the EU and can pick a suitable "home" country from the list.

Delta will have no problem then.
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Old 23 Aug 2018, 21:13 (Ref:3845648)   #75
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Yes, I was a being a bit thick there.
As someone who experienced the cross-border fun and games in, iirc, 1975 travelling between Germany and France I have long thought that many people in subsequent generations have been left relatively clueless about the (now hidden) rituals of "real life".

It had been a long hot drive and so it was good to have an enforced break for a "discussion" with a couple of French customs officers about the commercial value of some dirty T-shirts and a handful of model cars.

Quite entertaining as the elder of the two, who spoke very reasonable English, shrugged his shoulders and would have been happy to send us on our way.

The younger of the two, possibly quite new to the job I suspected, was less flexible. Even the explanation that they were promotional items and he was welcome to as many as he could carry did not sway him in our favour. We wasted a couple of hours and a lot of paper forms. I'm probably still on an official list of reprobates somewhere in the depths of a filing system.
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