Honda Withdrawl from F1

[steve_r]

Breaking news that Honda will withdraw from F1 at the end of 2021.

Not good news for their two teams.

https://global.honda/newsroom/news/2...01002aeng.html

So many years of underperforming and explosions, and now they finally get to a position where they are reliable and competitive, and off they go.

[Akrapovic]

Good. The F1 engine market needs to completely collapse in on itself so we can remove the power from the big manufacturers.

[Moneyseeker]

If the burnt bridges can be rebuilt, I guess it will be Red Bull Renault again.

Interestingly Cyril was talking about Renault wanting partners not just customers for any future engine deals.

This, though is the problem of a front running team needing engines from their immediate rivals.

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[chunterer]

Woah wasn't quite expectimg that as they are moving forwards in performance?!

Have to say i agree wity Akrapovic on this. Hopefully this will now see urgent activity by Stefano and co to investigate 'private' engine suppliers and entrants once more.

This should also nip this stupid €200m new team entry fee in the bud.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by chunterer

Woah wasn't quite expectimg that as they are moving forwards in performance?!



Have to say i agree wity Akrapovic on this. Hopefully this will now see urgent activity by Stefano and co to investigate 'private' engine suppliers and entrants once more.



This should also nip this stupid €200m new team entry fee in the bud.

Go the BTCC route get a standard engine then keep knocking back the other works engines to make sure it stays competitive.

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[ascarracinguk]

Oof! Where does that leave red bull! Renault are their only option and I guess the 2022 car will be designed around the Honda.

I guess the inevitable question is where does Max go? Ferrari or Mercedes? Does Mercedes replace Bottas with max and Hamilton retire at the end of 2021?

Silly season just got an upgraded KERS system....just not a Honda one!

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Go the BTCC route get a standard engine then keep knocking back the other works engines to make sure it stays competitive.

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I’ve always wondered this. Where does F1 go next? Bin the manufacturers and get specialist racing engines giving petrol heads what they want or follow manufacturers and go fully electric

[steve_r]

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the 2022 engines will be the same as the current generation ones. Looking back to when Renault withdrew from F1 a few years back, Benetton ran the same engines but rebadged them Mecachrome IIRC. In the same way, perhaps Red Bull could continue to run the existing Honda units themselves. Is engine development restricted / frozen? If so, then this might be a viable option and they could remain competitive.

Given how overly complex the engines are, I cannot see why any new manufacturer in their right mind would enter F1 - especially considering how bad PR Honda got with their underpowered and unreliable engines when they entered. I assume that a new engine manufacturer would be unlikely - unless F1 rules change to simplify engine regs considerably.

[wolfhound]

Remember after Honda pulled out the last time the team that they left behine went onto greater things.


Surprised at the timing when Honda seemed to be making decent progress with their power units. Problem is the cost cap does not cover power units properly.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I’ve always wondered this. Where does F1 go next? Bin the manufacturers and get specialist racing engines giving petrol heads what they want or follow manufacturers and go fully electric

Although Liberty/Malone own a small stake in FE, I blieve that Agag cleverly got agreement from the FIA that FE would be the only full elctric single seater FIA world championship series. In theory Liberty would have to buy FE in order to make F1 full electric.

Been an interesting year for FOM and their investors have they have seen how vulnerable F1 is global conditions, not owning any circuits themselves and now manufacturers pulling out leaving teams without engines.

I have always said that FOM/Liberty will never make the return on F1 that BE/CVC did and I still believe that. In order to protect their investment...

They should go back to companies that were looking at developing engine and see what can be developed as a stock F1 engine in the realisation that no other car manufacturer is going to build an ICE F1 engine now.

Buy their own circuit so they will always have a base for races/testing and where they could develop an European F1 experience - Liberty are in the entertainment inudstry aren't they - and then you would have a tangible asset, not just a load of contracts that as this year shoed, can be proved to be worthless.

[wolfhound]

Its going to be interesting to see what engines the Red Bull teams end up with.


It will have to be one of the existing maufacturers as there is not time for a new one to come in and develop a new power unit.



I suspect we might see RB with one and Alpha Tauri wiyh another.

Mercedes will be supplying power units to 4 teams next season so they are unlikely to have the capacity to supply 2 more.

Renault and RB did not get on well in recent years despite winning 4 championships together.

Ferrari are in a weak position at the moment and already have 3 teams to supply and probably don't want a high profile team like RB giving them more hassle.


I suspect we could see Renault supplying Alpha Tauri as it would be lower profile and without all the drama that goes with RB. It would give Renault an extra load of data to work from.
Where RB goes is another question, a Fiat badged Ferrari perhaps.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by steve_r

Correct me if I am wrong, but I think that the 2022 engines will be the same as the current generation ones. Looking back to when Renault withdrew from F1 a few years back, Benetton ran the same engines but rebadged them Mecachrome IIRC. In the same way, perhaps Red Bull could continue to run the existing Honda units themselves. Is engine development restricted / frozen? If so, then this might be a viable option and they could remain competitive.

Given how overly complex the engines are, I cannot see why any new manufacturer in their right mind would enter F1 - especially considering how bad PR Honda got with their underpowered and unreliable engines when they entered. I assume that a new engine manufacturer would be unlikely - unless F1 rules change to simplify engine regs considerably.

Could be the case, IIRC Mechachrome was Briatore wasn't it, but in this case do we think Honda would want to commit resources themselves even if RBR was paying unless it could be a Mugen run programme that RBR badge themselves.

The Perez to RBR rumours seem to be gathering pace, maybe his sponsors wpould fund the engines?

OT, but the Mercedes to selling to Ineos runours aren't going away either. I think Daimler are batting it off at the moment by saying they have no plans to sell the team - but the Ineos rumours are built around them buying a major stake (70%).

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Although Liberty/Malone own a small stake in FE, I blieve that Agag cleverly got agreement from the FIA that FE would be the only full elctric single seater FIA world championship series. In theory Liberty would have to buy FE in order to make F1 full electric.

Been an interesting year for FOM and their investors have they have seen how vulnerable F1 is global conditions, not owning any circuits themselves and now manufacturers pulling out leaving teams without engines.

I have always said that FOM/Liberty will never make the return on F1 that BE/CVC did and I still believe that. In order to protect their investment...

They should go back to companies that were looking at developing engine and see what can be developed as a stock F1 engine in the realisation that no other car manufacturer is going to build an ICE F1 engine now.

Buy their own circuit so they will always have a base for races/testing and where they could develop an European F1 experience - Liberty are in the entertainment inudstry aren't they - and then you would have a tangible asset, not just a load of contracts that as this year shoed, can be proved to be worthless.

Can’t fault some of this logic

We could be heading for another Cosworth DFV type era with 1 specialist racing engine (and Ferrari) that puts more oneness on racing teams and constructors rather than engine manufacturers.

The cost cap will help with this

[Knowlesy]

Red Bull to go crawling back to Renault?

[S griffin]

While it's a shame to lose Honda, this is why F1 or any motorsport for that matter, should be so reliant on manufacturers. They come and go as they please. Their racing department may enjoy the competition, but at the end of the day the decision to continue or not comes from those at the top, the actual motor manufacturer. If only we could have a modern equivalent of the good old Ford Cosworth DFV

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by Moneyseeker

Go the BTCC route get a standard engine then keep knocking back the other works engines to make sure it stays competitive.

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BTCC route??? F1is different type of motor racing.

Standard engines are for lower level racing.

[ascarracinguk]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

BTCC route??? F1is different type of motor racing.

Standard engines are for lower level racing.

Really? I mean the Ford DFV served F1 well for a few decades, the Gibson engine does well for LMP2 etc etc

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by S griffin

While it's a shame to lose Honda, this is why F1 or any motorsport for that matter, should be so reliant on manufacturers. They come and go as they please. Their racing department may enjoy the competition, but at the end of the day the decision to continue or not comes from those at the top, the actual motor manufacturer. If only we could have a modern equivalent of the good old Ford Cosworth DFV

This is why TOCA have done such a good job with the BTCC, it still has the 'glamour' of some 'works' entries, but they are not allowed to dominate a well built, run and driven TOCA engined car car win races or as may be the case this year, the championship. Yes, we know that performance balancing and other elements help this. Now there will be a TOCA Hybrid power unit to keep the BTCC topical.

For years, F1 has been standing on an upside down pyramid. At the end of the BE/CVC era probably half the teams could afford to stay in business and half the circuits couldn't afford to hold the races - at least FOM is now recognising this and making changes.

More worrying for FOM and their marketing people is that Honda no longer see the value in F1 for them, which is not good news for FOM's global marketing platform.

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

BTCC route??? F1is different type of motor racing.

Standard engines are for lower level racing.

F1is over relaint on the engine performance factor - look at Ferrari now they have been pegged back - nowhere on pure performance .

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

Really?

Yep.

Originally Posted by ascarracinguk

I mean the Ford DFV served F1 well for a few decades, the Gibson engine does well for LMP2 etc etc

That's fine when it occurs like that "organically". When it's forced or pre-empted like in the btcc, it's not particularly satisfying.

[steve nielsen]

With Stefano Domenicali beeing the new F1 CEO: how about Red Bull-Lamborghini ?

[BertMk2]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

That's fine when it occurs like that "organically". When it's forced or pre-empted like in the btcc, it's not particularly satisfying.

But it's not forced? If you want to develop your own engine you can, if you can't or don't want to then fine - use the off the shelf item. I don't see why that's such a bad thing? It makes sense - the championship is then not relying on manfacturers being involved. How committed are Renault and Mercedes? If they bail out in the next few years then where are the engines coming from? It'll be everyone with a Ferrari unit (assuming they could build enough). An independent engine supply just makes sense.

[steve nielsen]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But it's not forced? If you want to develop your own engine you can, if you can't or don't want to then fine - use the off the shelf item. I don't see why that's such a bad thing? It makes sense - the championship is then not relying on manfacturers being involved. How committed are Renault and Mercedes? If they bail out in the next few years then where are the engines coming from? It'll be everyone with a Ferrari unit (assuming they could build enough). An independent engine supply just makes sense.

Coworth had a V6 turbo hybrid engine ready for 2014, but nobody wanted it.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...f1-power-unit/

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by BertMk2

But it's not forced? If you want to develop your own engine you can, if you can't or don't want to then fine - use the off the shelf item. I don't see why that's such a bad thing? It makes sense - the championship is then not relying on manfacturers being involved. How committed are Renault and Mercedes? If they bail out in the next few years then where are the engines coming from? It'll be everyone with a Ferrari unit (assuming they could build enough). An independent engine supply just makes sense.

Completely agree - FOM should commision it and then they can sell the badging rights - so it becomes say the Aramaco engine and then sell the engines to the teams and make sure they remain competitive. This would also reduce the development of the works engines if they know they wil be kept at some sort of parity with FOM's engine.

I know I keep saying this, but FOM just owns a pile of paperwork - no circuits, no teams in other words nothing that guarantees them to turn that paperwork into money.

Look at what Carey has said in the past, he was very open that they believe d there was a massive sponsor resource out there, it just needed some more 'know how' and people to make the calls - having invested in the people and the know how they found that they queue for F1 sponsors wasn't as long or willing as they imagined, and that was pre-Covid!

Ditto the circuits with coutries and promoters queuing up to outbid each other to have F1 there - apart from Saudia - where will this come from?

Liberty investors proably thought that all of the above after suffcient investment would deliver a much bigger return that BE/CVC achieved. I doubt they will get anywhere even close to it - can you imagine the FOM P/L accounts from this season!

[Moneyseeker]

Originally Posted by steve nielsen

Coworth had a V6 turbo hybrid engine ready for 2014, but nobody wanted it.

https://www.racecar-engineering.com/...f1-power-unit/

I bet their phone has rung already....