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Old 13 Oct 2021, 20:05 (Ref:4078350)   #166
crmalcolm
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So what conclusion do I draw?

I think that over time the rest of the grid improved relative to the CC, and gradually the CC became further away from pace.

A 2017 CC that had recently been in the hands of BMR and BKR was theoretically as competitive (against the field) to the current Cupra's pace (4-4 in head-to-head).
A 2018 CC was less competitive compared to the current Cupra's pace (5-3).
A 2019 CC has a similar head-to-head (5-3).
By 2020, the CC is now so far off the pace that it is beaten 6-1.

So is a 2021 Cupra an improvement on a 2017 CC - maybe.
Is a 2021 Cupra an improvement on a 2020 CC - yes, by a long way.

Which going back to the original point of the Cupra being a disaster of a project - for their first self-build, it is already getting better results than their last car in a field that has got increasingly competitive across the board.
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Old 13 Oct 2021, 20:18 (Ref:4078353)   #167
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Thanks for that data and for the work you put into making it. I think it proves that the Cupra was definitely a big improvement on the 2019-20 VW CCs, but I'm sure nobody was denying that. I don't think it has been as good as the 2017 version, as I think the overall grid was stronger then than now (although this is a little subjective) and Hill and Epps scored more points than Goff and Taylor-Smith. Hill was very unlucky that season and deserved far more points than he got. Also, I rate 2021 Jack Goff at least as highly as 2017 Jake Hill. 2018 is harder to evaluate as Mike Bushell, their strongest driver that year (as Hill didn't get many good results in the first half of the season, and the VW looked better at the end), is probably not quite on Goff or Hill's level, although I think he is very good and hope he gets the third Cupra drive in 2022. (Rockingham, of course, isn't included there but I think that was Bushell's best result). But I am going to say that the Cupra probably is better than it, so would rank them,
1. VW 2017
2. Cupra 2021
3. VW 2018
4. VW 2019
5. VW 2020

The slightly concerning thing is that the Cupra seems to be going backwards in terms of performance, when you would expect a new car like that to be going forwards, but I think your data shows it definitely has not been a disaster. I think we'd all like it to be a bit more competitive, and for Goff and Smith to win races again, but I think maybe that was an unrealistic expectation for the Cupra. It is important to remember that without Team HARD, Jack Goff and Aron Smith wouldn't be on the grid at all.

It has now been suggested on reddit that Josh Cook may replace Jack Goff next year at Team HARD. I think this would be a disaster, as Cook would go from being a front-runner to a midfield driver, and Goff would disappear from the grid entirely, so I am hoping this does not happen and Cook either stays at BTC or goes to Toyota, with Goff staying at HARD.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 07:55 (Ref:4078391)   #168
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I really can't get my head around the rumours of Sutton potentially bringing another new car to the grid. Unless he has fallen out with LTR/Moffats, why wouldn't he continue with the Q50, even as a single car team?
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 08:22 (Ref:4078392)   #169
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Unless he has fallen out with LTR/Moffats, why wouldn't he continue with the Q50, even as a single car team?
Don't overlook how much of a stake Mr Scott has in the future drives of Sutton. If there are issues between BMR / LTR, then Sutton will be out the door even if he wants to stay.

In fairness - I have no idea if there is any friction, but given the success that Sutton has had so far, why would he query plans that Mr Scott has for him?
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 08:53 (Ref:4078394)   #170
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I don't know what the issues are in the Laser Tools Racing camp, but there definitely are issues. Carl Boardley clearly wasn't happy at Donnington.

We know the Laser Tools Racing/BMR/Team HARD tie up is going to be broken up and it looks like a BMR/PMR tie in is close to being agreed.

As for Plato not driving a Honda on principle, there is nothing in that at all. There may have been a few years ago, but not now. I mean, there may be absolutely nothing in the Plato to BMR rumours anyway, but if you asked Plato to answer honestly which car he would most like to be driving on the current BTCC grid to be successful, I'm sure his answer would be a BMR Honda!
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 09:08 (Ref:4078396)   #171
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I don't know what the issues are in the Laser Tools Racing camp, but there definitely are issues. Carl Boardley clearly wasn't happy at Donnington.

We know the Laser Tools Racing/BMR/Team HARD tie up is going to be broken up and it looks like a BMR/PMR tie in is close to being agreed.

As for Plato not driving a Honda on principle, there is nothing in that at all. There may have been a few years ago, but not now. I mean, there may be absolutely nothing in the Plato to BMR rumours anyway, but if you asked Plato to answer honestly which car he would most like to be driving on the current BTCC grid to be successful, I'm sure his answer would be a BMR Honda!
If Plato has a sack of sponsors Motorbase would be a good place for him ?
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 09:10 (Ref:4078397)   #172
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It's interesting when you hear the potential PMR tie-in with BMR, which would probably involve a new build.

I can't see BMR taking on a TD Honda, having had so much success with builds of their own. Sutton would probably want a RWD machine if possible, but Plato had less success in RWD.

So - IF BMR and PMR form a partnership, what driver / car combo could they make work. Sutton would be in there, which would probably see Plato out - so Plato to BTC in a Honda then?

In all honesty, I can see a potential domino effect on the grid - some of which have been alluded to here already.


BMR / Laser Tools / HARD. alliance reaches and end.
TBLs that move include

Aiden Moffat holds 1x TBL, HARD. hold 4x TBL.
This forces the hand of HARD./Laser to revert to 2x 2-car teams.
One pair of Q50s driven by Aiden + Goff.
One pair of Cupras driven by ATS + Cook.

Boardley holds 2x TBLs, and BMR hold 1x TBL. This allows a 3-car team to be formed, but requires the backing of someone like PMR to fund the cars. So the combined BMR / PMR team enter a new build RWD car, driven by Sutton, Boardley and potentially Lloyd.

Plato moves to BTC, filling the seat vacated by Cook. He is joined by Proctor and Edwards.


This is all speculation, based on a few rumours here, mutterings from drivers on the grid and a bit of paddock grapevine.

In summary:
BTC - Honda - Plato, Proctor, Edwards
Laser Tools - Infiniti - Moffat, Goff
HARD. - Cupra - Taylor-Smith, Cook
BMR/PMR - new RWD - Boardley, Sutton, Lloyd
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 09:19 (Ref:4078400)   #173
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I can’t see team hard going to just two Cupras next year that’s a lot of expense to build four cars just for one year
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 09:55 (Ref:4078407)   #174
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I get the feeling that the time of year has now arrived, where the input that nobody has asked for yet is vital to the thread.

Haters gonna hate, but here it is - the list!!!!

(If anyone has updates that I may have missed - particularly in terms of official press releases - please comment. And yes, I know that confirmed is only ever about as confirmed as Cammish was for 2021).
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 10:15 (Ref:4078410)   #175
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I meant Plato to BTC rumours and BTC Honda obviously, not BMR! I obviously wasn't fully awake this morning!

Plato and BMR linking up is unlikely to ever happen again!

Given the suggested struggles at Team Dynamics. A Team Dynamics and BTC tie up would be far more of a possibility.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 13:24 (Ref:4078430)   #176
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
It's interesting when you hear the potential PMR tie-in with BMR, which would probably involve a new build.

I can't see BMR taking on a TD Honda, having had so much success with builds of their own. Sutton would probably want a RWD machine if possible, but Plato had less success in RWD.

So - IF BMR and PMR form a partnership, what driver / car combo could they make work. Sutton would be in there, which would probably see Plato out - so Plato to BTC in a Honda then?

In all honesty, I can see a potential domino effect on the grid - some of which have been alluded to here already.


BMR / Laser Tools / HARD. alliance reaches and end.
TBLs that move include

Aiden Moffat holds 1x TBL, HARD. hold 4x TBL.
This forces the hand of HARD./Laser to revert to 2x 2-car teams.
One pair of Q50s driven by Aiden + Goff.
One pair of Cupras driven by ATS + Cook.

Boardley holds 2x TBLs, and BMR hold 1x TBL. This allows a 3-car team to be formed, but requires the backing of someone like PMR to fund the cars. So the combined BMR / PMR team enter a new build RWD car, driven by Sutton, Boardley and potentially Lloyd.

Plato moves to BTC, filling the seat vacated by Cook. He is joined by Proctor and Edwards.


This is all speculation, based on a few rumours here, mutterings from drivers on the grid and a bit of paddock grapevine.

In summary:
BTC - Honda - Plato, Proctor, Edwards
Laser Tools - Infiniti - Moffat, Goff
HARD. - Cupra - Taylor-Smith, Cook
BMR/PMR - new RWD - Boardley, Sutton, Lloyd
Hard have 3 TBL. If there are issues between LTR and HARD, then surely Aiden will go it alone again (maybe with Boardley too). Boardley has 2 TBL which he could continue to loan to Hard. Sutton and BMR can take their TBL to whoever - creating a 3 car BMR/PMR outfit would help spread the costs of a new car project....
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 13:30 (Ref:4078431)   #177
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Originally Posted by crmalcolm View Post
I get the feeling that the time of year has now arrived, where the input that nobody has asked for yet is vital to the thread.

Haters gonna hate, but here it is - the list!!!!

(If anyone has updates that I may have missed - particularly in terms of official press releases - please comment. And yes, I know that confirmed is only ever about as confirmed as Cammish was for 2021).
Rowbottom signed a 'multi-year' deal too so I think we can put him as confirmed.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 14:24 (Ref:4078448)   #178
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medius should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridmedius should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
Can soneone look up exact words ofthe homologation rule for particular models? Was it 6 years? Seeing as the Q50 first appeared in 2015 it could be due to become ineligible.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 14:32 (Ref:4078450)   #179
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The time limit is after the car has stopped being sold new in the UK market.
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Old 14 Oct 2021, 14:38 (Ref:4078453)   #180
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Can soneone look up exact words ofthe homologation rule for particular models? Was it 6 years? Seeing as the Q50 first appeared in 2015 it could be due to become ineligible.
BMR homologated a revised design for the Q50 in January 2020.
Homologation requires the car to be on sale in UK showrooms at the time of homologation (they stopped selling them a few weeks later). The car is then eligible for up to 5 years after it is available in showrooms.

So the Q50 as homologated by BMR is eligible up until the start of the 2025 season.
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