Brabham BT30

[Ted Walker]

This is getting out of hand.BT36-11 was inspected last night by its new owner.He reported back to me with the Arch Motors No.The AM Nos on BT36s are in a totally different sequence to other cars.He was worried when he read it out as "its not the same as our BT30". The No he read out was the COrrect one for his BT36. There is no other number stamped anywhere else he could find.A lot of BT30s were called BT30/36 because of the rule change regarding cockpit widths brought for 1971. This meant that if you raced in Int F2 you had to fit a BT36 cockpit top. When I bought my BT30-16 It still had its 36 top on it.

[Roger H]

You had more chance of an entry and you also received more start money if you turned up with a 'this years ' car. Remember the race organisers didn't checked chassis numbers in period. Other than usual scrutineering (which by the way was often unusual!!) there were no checks.

[allenbrown]

Ted

I'm baffled by this, mainly because I haven't memorised everything on the preceding five pages. So do we now have both BT36-11 and BT30-17: two separate cars owned by seprate people in 2003? And do both show physical signs of being genuine original cars? If so, are we summising that the original BT30-17 frame was repaired and sold out the back door of MRD?

Allen

[Bryan Miller]

Ted.
What do you mean when you say the AM no.is in a different sequence to the others ?
I know what BT35-8's AM no. is , and also BT30/36 BT30-27.

If I understand correctly , it appears that Moser's car was stuffed and they recieved on Ron T's advice a BT36 frame to rebuild their BT30-17 , however to ''assist '' in border crossing the car was retained on it's original carnet, and as the Swiss Customs people were more diligent than others , that there may have been some numbers supplied to help.

We have two scenarios available here, and the simple answer lies in finding out if the whole damaged BT30-17 returned to the works in the U.K. or if a new BT36 chassis and presumably other lesser components were dispatched to Moser in Switzerland.

If the former , there is no way the old dead chassis is going to return to Switzerland , as it would complicate customs.
AM numbers were put on by Arch Motors not Brabhams , so did Mosers mechanics add another number elsewhere to assist customs entry , because we know the AM no. on the BT30 is going to be AM70-?, and the AM no. on the 36 is going to be AM71-?, and that is not going to be helpful at the border.

As we appear to have one BT30 dead , and a BT36 , with it's own number i.e , BT36-11 , and recorded as such by F1R , which is used to rebuild the dead BT30 , really one assumes BT30 ceased to exist at that point in time, and BT36-11 took over.

Therefore at what point in time did BT30 resurface and under what circumstances.
Only two scenarios are poss. , out the back door from Brabhams in 1971 , if the car was rebuilt by them, and I for one would love to see a verifyable trail on that.
Or the BT36 new chassis was sent to Switzerland and the dead BT30 lay doggo for an indeterminate length of time and then resurfaces, surely at that point only a rusty chassis.
I would love to see a verifyable trail on that as well , but more importantly what are the AM numbers on both these cars, as I don't understand your reference to a different sequence.

In regard to the body panels , that is why at the start of this thread I expanded on that , as it was always going to complicate matters.

Andrew.
To answer your question , re. the frame , in OZ apart from one memorable stuff-up , the old dead frame is no more than another consumed component , along with wheels brake pads , uprights , and everything else that has either worn out or been crash damaged.

Beat says that after Imola the new frame was in the car , but always with the old number , not according to F1R.
Rouen 27-6-1971 , Moser has BT30-17 , and is on the grid.
Imola 25-7-1971 , Moser has BT36-11, but does not start due to crash.
Entered for Mantorp Park , but dns , car not ready, HOWEVER , car entered as BT30 .
At Tulln , dns , car not ready , but entered as BT36.

At Albi , on the grid , but did not qualify , but F1R records as BT36-11, also at Hochenheim, and at Vallelunga, 10-10-1971 and 17-10-1971.

F1R is saying at Imola Moser already had BT36-11 , is this a serious typo , or did Moser have two cars the old BT30-17 , and the BT36-11 and damaged BT30-17 , and Ron replaced that with a BT36 chassis into the BT30-17 , by the sound of it , Moser was struggling to pay for the new chassis and bits , so unlikely he had two, therefore F1R may be wrong.

Something is all wrong here.

Bryan.

[allenbrown]

F1R's Imola info must surely be wrong. Either that or Beat's story is completely wrong.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Quite right Allen as Id been trying to say. Ive seen both cars in the flesh. A BT36 Chassis is NOTHING like a BT30 frame. The 36 chassis has its correct arch motors number and so has BT30-17. The BT30 chassis when blasted showed no signs of MAJOR repair work and certainly did not have plated top tubes and provision for in board rear brakes as a BT36.

[Ted Walker]

Brian the AM NO on a BT36 is not AM71- Something thats what I mean by a special sequence of numbers. Its AM SOMETHING-71 I suppose arch motors must have had a "new man" on the stamps that week !!!!!

[Andrew Fellowes]

Ok now this may go part way to an answer.

Beat has told me today that the car they bent at Imola was a BT36 but with BT30-7 chassis plate and number stamped into it.

Ted your comment that BT30-17 had no signs of damage would support this.

They took the bent BT36 frame back to the UK where Tauranac said it wasn't worth repairing and sold them another.

So, given this update it now looks as though 30-17 was retired at some point in '71 and for customs the idendity put on the new BT36. This new BT36 is then crashed and replaced with another 36 chassis, both running under the original carnet for 30-17.

Beat finishes by saying they never raced a BT36 with a BT36 plate on it. They always used the 30 plate. Thats not what the press reported, but the paperwork used for the race entry might not been the same as used for border crossing especially if there was a financial insentive to enter it as a 36.

Did chassis numbers get checked at the the race track by the race organisers to see if it matched the paperwork?

The press after all would have been given the list of entries by the race organisers.

I am well out of my depths now, can anyone add to this?

footnote, There must have been a point where 30-17 is recorded by Swiss customs with a double entry. Maybe they did not cross check such things. I know I did this once with a carnet without any resulting problems.

[Ted Walker]

Hooray ,Hooray,I hate to say Itold you so.......Sanity is alive and well and living in AUSTRALIA .Whats next ????

[Andrew Fellowes]

OK, OK,

but I am very pleased that we have revealed a bit more history that could so easily have been lost.

Whats next??? -a very large Jack Daniels & coke for me thanks

[Bryan Miller]

BT30-17.

1 . Entered for Mallory Pk. no ch. no. report as car not back from Bogota.
2 . Hockenheim , Moser reported in ex John Coombs/Mike Goth BT30 , did not appear , car not ready.
3 . Thruxton , as above.
4 . Pau , did not start , did not enter.
5 . Nurburgring , as above.
6 . Jarama , ent. reported as BT30-17 , 1.29.4 , 9th finish.
Report of above entries states, Moser in Swiss Jolly Club recently acquired ex.-John Coombs/Jackie Stewart/Jack Brabham/Mike Goth BT30-17. ''Big Silv''has acquired considerable sponsorshp from Marlboro Cigarettes and the car is now turned out in a violent shade of emerald green.
7 . London Trophy , Crystal Palace , heat 1 50.0 , Brabham-FVA BT30-71, not my typo.
Heat 1 , 1st. Moser . push started in final and finished 7th.
8 . Vallelunga , BT30-17[ F1R], BT30 Autosport.
In practice Moser lost it[ poss. gearbox lockup] at 140 mph , bounced along the Armco and came to rest with the chassis badly tweaked at the back, did not start.
9 . Monza , BT30-17 [F1R] BT30 Autosport , DNQ.
10 . Rouen , Autosport BT30/17 , FIR BT30-17, Moser in heat 2, 10th., F1R say 11th.
Strangly no report in either of Moser in final , or why he dns , he had two stops for eng. problems in his heat, so perhaps could not fix.
11 . Imola , Autosport entry , Moser in his BT36 with Novamotor mill, F1R Brabham BT36 - BT36-11.
''Moser went quite well on Friday morning at 1.39.17 , but completely lost it during the afternoon session in the long lefthander after the pits and quite wrote off the BT36 which is almost becoming a habit with him.''
12 . Mantorp Park ent. in BT30 , but car not repaired [ F1R] , no report in Autosport.
13 . Tulln-Langenlebarn.
Ent. as BT36 , car not ready F1R. Autosport report Moser did not arrive as his new BT36 is not ready yet.
14 . Albi, Autosport report Moser's transporter broke down for the final BT36[11] entered , and he missed 1st. practice. F1R report car as BT36-11 .
15 . Hockenheim , F1R Brabham BT36 , BT36-11.
Autosport , Moser bought along his Nova powered BT36, finished 4th. BT36 - Moser.
16 . Vallelunga , F1R Brabham BT36-11. Autosport reports other BT36's for Peter Westbury and Silvio Moser.
17 . Vallelunga , 1 week later , F1R Brabham BT36 , BT36-11.
Autosport say the only other BT36 was for Silvio Moser entered by Jolly Club .
18 . Interlagos , car ent. as Brabham BT36 , but car did not arrive , as driver resting.


As I said earlier somethings not right.

Bryan.

[Ted Walker]

I have photographs I took of Moser at C Palace in June 71 in the BT30 with 36 Top and all the stewart Mods.

[allenbrown]

I wonder if he bent the BT30 at Rouen. Ted - do your MNs make any mention of him?

Or maybe it was just time for a new car.

Allen

[Ted Walker]

Lottery GP monza June 17th ish. "Moser had stuck his ex Coombs BT30 back together after itspractice shunt at Rome due to a broken rose joint in the rear upright" M News.

[Andrew Fellowes]

So, the calander looked like this????

May 16th Jarama, BT30
May 31st Crystal Palace BT30
June 13th Vallelunga BT30 accident
June 20th Monza BT30
June 27th Rouen BT30
July 25th Imola BT36 accident
August 8th Mantrop BT30 did not arrive
August 22nd Kinnekullering -
August 30th Brands Hatch -
September 12th Tulln-Langenlebarn BT36 did not arrive
September 26th Albi BT36
October 3rd Hockenheimring BT36
October 10th Vallelunga BT36
October 17th Vallelunga BT36

BT30-17, Last race, Rouen, June 27th, 1971
5 races in total.

BT36-11 Mk1, 1st Race (& last) Imola, July 25th 1971
Imola seems late in the year to get a new car, but if money was not an issue why not. (There was only one more chassis built after 36-11.)

BT36-11 Mk2, 1st Race, Albi, September 26th 1971
(4 races)

Thats 10 races Moser went to in 71 which is only 3 less than Schenken. Have I missed any?