Supercars Gen 3 (2022)

[one five five]

Originally Posted by Mixer

Disinterested in car racing you say? At least I am talking about car racing while you do nothing but steal my oxygen.

Btw Bathurst was a belter, pity the 2 litre cars couldn't pull their finger out of their back passage to put on a race for the FERVENT MOTOR RACING FANS WHO LOVE 2 LITRE CARS THAT ARE NOT PART OF THE CLIQUE

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How exactly could TCR have run a race at Bathurst in this current environment , given the event was an international event?

Supercars can’t event pull their finger out to put on a GT race in February, they’ve given up already

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

How exactly could TCR have run a race at Bathurst in this current environment , given the event was an international event?



Supercars can’t event pull their finger out to put on a GT race in February, they’ve given up already

I didn't say that had to run a race at Bathurst, but they could have got together to run a race anywhere, but they didn't have the organisational ability to do it. I have no doubt it was very difficult for Supercars to do. And nobody could run one of the TCR cars at any other meeting.

And absolutely COMICAL you say Supercars "gave up" in the 12 hour after ARG gave up on a whole season. International borders are closed and there will be no competitors able to come. AGT seems to be a bit of a, rabble, and I think many of the typical AGT stalwarts have a lot on their plate. The Europeans have their own problems too.

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[bloxsidgemotorsport]

never worked out why people who cant stand supercars would spend all day wanting them to change. Go watch TCR, Improved Production, GT or any other class that satisfies your needs.

Honestly I think the issue is people like 2 litre touring car star have complained for so long, they forgot how to support a class like TCR when it comes along.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

never worked out why people who cant stand supercars would spend all day wanting them to change.

Because a good number of forum members have been watching for longer than the 23 years Supercars has existed

[2 litre Touring Car Star]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

never worked out why people who cant stand supercars would spend all day wanting them to change. Go watch TCR, Improved Production, GT or any other class that satisfies your needs.

Honestly I think the issue is people like 2 litre touring car star have complained for so long, they forgot how to support a class like TCR when it comes along.

lol

The underlying issuse is that supercar has ATCC status (and Bathurst 1000) but is a less and less relevant class surviving only on being the establishment.

If it didn't have atcc status, it can go on and on as long as it can.

[crmalcolm]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

lol

The underlying issuse is that supercar has ATCC status (and Bathurst 1000) but is a less and less relevant class surviving only on being the establishment.

If it didn't have atcc status, it can go on and on as long as it can.

A genuine question - obviously there is no such thing as the ATCC as a series any more, so I am assuming when you refer to the 'ATCC status' you are referring to the winner of Supercars being awarded the title of Australian Touring Car Champion?

If that is the case - how many winners are referred to as the Australian Touring Car Champion, as opposed to the Supercars Champion? The series website makes no reference to the ATCC, and Scott McLaughlin only refers to himself as winning the 'Supercars Championship'.

[rich07]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

Beages is the "Quiet Australian (motor racing fan)" Scott Morrison refers to.

Tired and bored with the same nonsense we've seen for decades, and having "Strayan's want V8's mate, it's out DNA" and "how great the racing is" banged over his head.

He just wants a normal, straight down the line, egalitarian touring car series that's Australian. He's not interested in chest puffing or inflated opinions of itself. He will never ever get that though thanks to a self interested clique.

Beages is far and away not the only quiet fan..

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

lol



The underlying issuse is that supercar has ATCC status (and Bathurst 1000) but is a less and less relevant class surviving only on being the establishment.



If it didn't have atcc status, it can go on and on as long as it can.

I dunno, this year it survived on being able to put on actual races and award an actual championship, rather than a decidedly average eSeries and a bunch of social media posts?

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[Adam43]

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

I could tell you, but I'd get another infraction from Adam.

Originally Posted by 2 litre Touring Car Star

But I've been saying a fact and been getting infractions and warning about it. I haven't said anything bad. It's just the disadvantage with foreigners having the minimum interest in Australian domestic car racing culture.

You have been given infractions not for “facts”, but for how you have expressed your opinions.

Let me make this clear:
1. You can have whatever opinion about motorsport you like.
2. It is how you have been expressing it that is the problem.

If you are going to discuss on this forum you have to accept others may have a different opinion to you.

This applies across the whole forum. Please read the FAQ as you have been invited to do on several occasions.

You’d think you’d realize that as someone who isn’t an Aussie I don’t have an axe to grind with any series there. In fact, you’d think, I’d be more aligned to 2l stuff! Quite frankly, the bickering here turns me off the whole thing. But I know that deep down there is great motorsport and certainly a great circuit at the top of it all.

And finally to summarize again. It is not what the opinion is, it is how it is expressed.

I suggest that you take this on board rather than try to fight against it. Keep these threads to motorsport. A further reply here will be considered not taking it on board. Of course, feel free to contact the forum admin or another moderator.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by crmalcolm

A genuine question - obviously there is no such thing as the ATCC as a series any more, so I am assuming when you refer to the 'ATCC status' you are referring to the winner of Supercars being awarded the title of Australian Touring Car Champion?

If that is the case - how many winners are referred to as the Australian Touring Car Champion, as opposed to the Supercars Champion? The series website makes no reference to the ATCC, and Scott McLaughlin only refers to himself as winning the 'Supercars Championship'.

It depends on the day of the week and what barrow Supercars are pushing as to whether they reference the ATCC or not.

They trade off the history of the ATCC yet don’t want to actively market the name that supposedly means so much

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

never worked out why people who cant stand supercars would spend all day wanting them to change. Go watch TCR, Improved Production, GT or any other class that satisfies your needs.

Honestly I think the issue is people like 2 litre touring car star have complained for so long, they forgot how to support a class like TCR when it comes along.

Its because (as said above) Supercars is a clique with all the self interest that comes with it. Decisions are made with that self interest in mind.

Why do you think they never look at adopting proven (sometimes international) regulations? It has to be their regs with their self interest satisfied.

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

so people are complaining because they have rights to the ATCC awarding. Lol that is like the most minor issue in the sport.

Give TCR the ATCC title, will it change anything? TCR couldn't even run a single race this year, they have a long way to go before they even remotely challenge supercars.

Supercars wont disappear, they have their new regulations. They have a new championship sponsor paying actual money. Full list of teams with a variety of owners. New TV broadcast deal. Calendar for 2021 is out already.

What does TCR have for next season?

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Its because (as said above) Supercars is a clique with all the self interest that comes with it. Decisions are made with that self interest in mind.

Why do you think they never look at adopting proven (sometimes international) regulations? It has to be their regs with their self interest satisfied.

And why is that wrong? We live thousands and thousands of KM away from either europe or the USA.

Japan has its own series in both touring cars and formula cars. So does Argentina, Brazil etc. USA has Transam and Nascar.

What regulations would you propose that would remotely interest supercar fans? TCR, nope no way grocery cars. GT3, nope to expensive to race all season. NASCAR? Hell maybe it would work now they are being engineered more road going.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Its because (as said above) Supercars is a clique with all the self interest that comes with it. Decisions are made with that self interest in mind.

Why do you think they never look at adopting proven (sometimes international) regulations? It has to be their regs with their self interest satisfied.

I don't think "self interest" is the right world, it's about being in control of their on destiny & I personally don't have a problem with that!

[Compromised]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

And why is that wrong? We live thousands and thousands of KM away from either europe or the USA.

Japan has its own series in both touring cars and formula cars. So does Argentina, Brazil etc. USA has Transam and Nascar.

What regulations would you propose that would remotely interest supercar fans? TCR, nope no way grocery cars. GT3, nope to expensive to race all season. NASCAR? Hell maybe it would work now they are being engineered more road going.

Nothing inherently wrong with it - it has and can work very successfully. I'm questioning whether or not it's run its course.

Manufacturer involvment has always been a big priority for the series. Gen 3 looks to be stepping away from that, which makes sense because without the aforementioned "international regs" I can't see any manufacturers getting involved.

So without direct factory involvment we press on, racing cars that won't be for sale... Hmmmm...

Without manufacturers, car model choice is totally up to the series. So they choose cars not for sale. Ok...

Takeaway the facade and what it looks like is Supercars has effectively lost manufacturer backing yet is still clinging to manufacturers, even if it means running cars not available in Australia

Strange stuff...

[one five five]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

regulations would you propose that would remotely interest supercar fans?

I think the last two words says it all really

[V8 Fireworks]

Originally Posted by bloxsidgemotorsport

TCR, nope no way grocery cars.

Wow, just wow. That attitude is a good way to send Renault, Peugeot and Honda fans far away from your racing series.

No mention that these these are the kinds of sporty economy cars that people actually buy, they represent a wide variety of brands, and that they actually have circuit capability in stock form (whereas you really need a Mustang GT350R but Ford Australia will only sell you a regular GT)...

Lovecars: Civic vs Megane with Tiff Needell
Lovecars: Megane vs Mini v i30 v Octavia v 308 with Tiff Needell

[bloxsidgemotorsport]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Wow, just wow. That attitude is a good way to send Renault, Peugeot and Honda fans far away from your racing series.

No mention that these these are the kinds of sporty economy cars that people actually buy, they represent a wide variety of brands, and that they actually have circuit capability in stock form (whereas you really need a Mustang GT350R but Ford Australia will only sell you a regular GT)...

Lovecars: Civic vs Megane with Tiff Needell
Lovecars: Megane vs Mini v i30 v Octavia v 308 with Tiff Needell

Yet I guess myself and many fans have zero interest in these cars. TCR is their class not supercars..

Supercars with Ford Mustang, Chev Camaro and hopefully a BMW M4, Toyota Supra, Kia Stinger, Nissan Z, Audi RS5, Dodge Challenger etc sounds great. Fast, Thumping V8 and Aussie Nascar Style.

[benny41]

Originally Posted by V8 Fireworks

Wow, just wow. That attitude is a good way to send Renault, Peugeot and Honda fans far away from your racing series.

No mention that these these are the kinds of sporty economy cars that people actually buy, they represent a wide variety of brands, and that they actually have circuit capability in stock form (whereas you really need a Mustang GT350R but Ford Australia will only sell you a regular GT)...

Lovecars: Civic vs Megane with Tiff Needell
Lovecars: Megane vs Mini v i30 v Octavia v 308 with Tiff Needell

They might buy those types of cars but it doesnt mean that they will be interested in watching them race. Look at the superutes as an example. TCR will only work if it is promoted well and we are yet to see if this is going to happen but i suspect that the budget they have to spend in this in comparison to supercars.

I dont get the part about manufacturer support? The race on sunday sell on monday is absolutely dead , so why does it matter if the car is avaliable to buy? Manafacturers are not going to tipping money into racing especially post covid

I really think we should be building the future of the top tier of australian motorsport around the ability around teams to be flexible in the car that they choose to base their racing on

[one five five]

Originally Posted by benny41

I dont get the part about manufacturer support? The race on sunday sell on monday is absolutely dead , so why does it matter if the car is avaliable to buy? Manafacturers are not going to tipping money into racing especially post covid

I really think we should be building the future of the top tier of australian motorsport around the ability around teams to be flexible in the car that they choose to base their racing on

That’s fine.

But then they should stop trying to tell us it is the same series as it’s always been and continue to trade off its history, if it’s decided road relevance is not important.....ironic given road relevance was one of the core reasons the V8 rules came in for 1993

[benny41]

So a series shouldn't evolve? The worlds moved on from where it was in 1993.

I would think there are some pretty obvious links with the ATCC and the current supercars championship regardless of the rule set applied being different.

Should Nascar not celebrate its history because the cars are no longer stock cars?

[Mixer]

Originally Posted by one five five

But then they should stop trying to tell us it is the same series as it’s always been and continue to trade off its history, if it’s decided road relevance is not important.....ironic given road relevance was one of the core reasons the V8 rules came in for 1993

By your circular and idiotic argument, Supercars doesn't "belong" as the home of the ATCC, but then neither does Improved Production, Australian Group C, or Australian Group A, as these were different rule sets the same competitors moved to over time, to compete for the ATCC - EXACTLY as Supercars did, starting in 1993.

And you know, outlasted most of those other rule sets combined.

[AnnoyedMoose]

Originally Posted by Compromised

Its because (as said above) Supercars is a clique with all the self interest that comes with it. Decisions are made with that self interest in mind.

Why do you think they never look at adopting proven (sometimes international) regulations? It has to be their regs with their self interest satisfied.

The BTCC in the UK is the same though and it hasn't done them any harm. Just because an organisation or person is in the minority doesn't mean they are wrong. Biggest mistake Supercars made (from my distant perspective) was going pay per view in the domestic market.

Oddly their paywall streaming service has been one of the major issues (in my limited pool of people) why it's gained popularity overseas as it's such great value. Shows that paywalls can work but the price point has to be right.

Not entirely sure what you guys get in Aus/NZ for your money but what has always put me off paying for F1 over here is that they want a decent wedge of my money in comparison and have constant ad breaks in everything but the actual race. Seems like having your cake and eating it to me.

Personally I'm looking forward to the Gen3 cars.

[one five five]

Originally Posted by benny41

So a series shouldn't evolve? The worlds moved on from where it was in 1993.

I would think there are some pretty obvious links with the ATCC and the current supercars championship regardless of the rule set applied being different.

Should Nascar not celebrate its history because the cars are no longer stock cars?

Stock Car Racing has been run by the one organisation, NASCAR, since it was formed in 1948. It has a direct line of history. Supercars does not, that link was broken in 1997 when AVESCO (now Supercars) was formed. Why don’t they celebrate their own history? (They should do that with Bathurst too, rather than continually celebrate someone else’s race)

Originally Posted by Mixer

By your circular and idiotic argument, Supercars doesn't "belong" as the home of the ATCC, but then neither does Improved Production, Australian Group C, or Australian Group A, as these were different rule sets the same competitors moved to over time, to compete for the ATCC - EXACTLY as Supercars did, starting in 1993.

Supercars did not start in 1993. The V8 Formula did, and when AVESCO/Supercars started in 1997, they used that set of rules. Saying Supercars started in 1993 is just rewriting history.

The years that the ATCC ran to Improved Production, Group C and Group A, along with the first four years of the V8 Formula, were all administered by CAMS. That is why they all belong in ATCC history.

TEGA were gifted the category rights for the V8 Formula at the end of 1995, and got into bed with IMG/Tony Cochrane for 1997, formed AVESCO and after the CAMS/AVESCO bust up in 2000 they’ve done their own thing, they don’t even advertise the series as the ATCC, just use the stats to supposedly justify their “heritage”

Supercars as an organisation is almost 24 years old, enough history of their own to start celebrating.

[benny41]

Originally Posted by one five five

Stock Car Racing has been run by the one organisation, NASCAR, since it was formed in 1948. It has a direct line of history. Supercars does not, that link was broken in 1997 when AVESCO (now Supercars) was formed. Why don’t they celebrate their own history? (They should do that with Bathurst too, rather than continually celebrate someone else’s race)



Supercars did not start in 1993. The V8 Formula did, and when AVESCO/Supercars started in 1997, they used that set of rules. Saying Supercars started in 1993 is just rewriting history.

The years that the ATCC ran to Improved Production, Group C and Group A, along with the first four years of the V8 Formula, were all administered by CAMS. That is why they all belong in ATCC history.

TEGA were gifted the category rights for the V8 Formula at the end of 1995, and got into bed with IMG/Tony Cochrane for 1997, formed AVESCO and after the CAMS/AVESCO bust up in 2000 they’ve done their own thing, they don’t even advertise the series as the ATCC, just use the stats to supposedly justify their “heritage”

Supercars as an organisation is almost 24 years old, enough history of their own to start celebrating.

No direct link ? So none of the teams or drivers competed in the 96 series competed in the 97 series?


So what should we do ? Not celebrate the history of the drivers cars and teams? Let it all fade into history? Similar to our goldstar series for open wheel drivers?

To be honest im not really sure why this is such a big issue the cams/supercars/avesco bust up get back together happened over 20 years ago , surely its time to just accept that supercars was the next evolution in the atcc and move on with life