The 800cc Era - Death of the Little Guy

[jhansen]

Through the genius of Dorna and Honda, the 1000cc era was brought to a close at the end of 2006. The new 800cc class was ushered in as a safer and more practical form of GP racing. Since then, the corner speeds have increased while the electronics have become omnipresent. On the other side, the racing became boring, costs have sky rocketed and the grid has shrunk. And mind you, the 2006 grid wasn't exactly huge.

The question is; can the 2012 rule change bring new manufacturers and teams back?

The 800cc casualty list:

[bestfit]

DORNA always seem to get the blame for the problems associated with the regulation changes. the fact is however, as this article details, DORNA, the FIM and IRTA have ZERO say in MotoGP's technical regulations. They are formulated ENTIRELY by the MSMA (factory association). If the factories unanimously pass a regulation, as they always do, then they cannot be blocked by anyone.

The article details some of the measures DORNA is taking to break this stranglehold once the current contract with the MSMA expires at the end of 2011. ie introduction of Claiming Rule Teams (CRT) who will be allowed to run production-based engines in prototype chassis with additional fuel, and the appointment of an advisor with both racing and manufacturing backgrounds to counter the manufacturers claims.
To a large extent DORNA has merely been a figurehead since the beginning of the 4 stroke era now it appears it is fighting back. Good to see.

[jhansen]

That's a fair point. And certainly, the manufacturers will run amuck if left to their own devices. If the new rules are allowed to permit prototype chassis with production based motors, then I think we CAN see an influx of new bikes and teams. Suter, Moriwaki and the like come to mind. But with that said, more needs to be done to curb the electronics. The little guy cannot compete in that arena.

[bestfit]

A great interview with KRjr. Here He has some very interesting comments on a variety of topics.
It is a podcast. 57minutes 25Mb

[Schummy]

Originally Posted by bestfit

"Bigamy is having one wife too many. Monogamy is the same. {Oscar Wilde}"

Great! Oscar Wilde' sentences tend to be funny.

About the subject of this thread, I don't have an opinion. My strong point is to not have opinions. (Except about Poggiali).

[DavidStHubbins]

OT a bit, but I think Rossi has been smart moving to Ducati - put your hand up if you think they'll make a bad 1000cc bike in 2012?

I assume none of you held a hand aloft.


On topic - the problem for the little guy at the moment is that all the best riders are on the best bikes, more so than ever before. So there are no chances at all anymore. It's a double lock-out!

[djb]

Originally Posted by bestfit

A great interview with KRjr. Here He has some very interesting comments on a variety of topics.
It is a podcast. 57minutes 25Mb

thanks a lot bestfit, enjoyed listening to that and his points on the various stuff, very interesting.

(but man o man, someone has to tell that site that the music intro bit is just gawd awful off tune, made me cringe each time I heard it...)

[BootsOntheSide]

800cc racing has been a vastly inferior product to 1000cc. The increased corner speeds mean there hasn't been any safety benefit, and the increased untempered electronics do indeed make it impossible for smaller teams to survive. Not only have the attempts at running independent cosntructors all failed, but it's so much harder for privateers to run at the front. 17 bikes is nothign short of pathetic and its amazing that the circuits have continued to put up with it. Hopefully the return to smaller bikes will help, but its unlikely unless the economy picks up.

[Ultimo]

Let me preface what I'm about to say by saying I'm a relative newcomer to MotoGP. I hear a lot of people here complaining about the small grid, but to be honest, I don't really mind. The TV coverage barely shows anything outside the top 10 as things stand - so even if there were larger grids, it wouldn't be shown. I don't like that the industries - racing, and motorcycling at large - have taken significant hits, and I suppose I'd prefer more bikes than less, but I don't see it as a problem from a TV spectator's point of view.

I would like to see a diversity of entrants - it saddens me when a manufacturer leaves, but often they do so because they can't win. What I'd like to see is on any given weekend multiple bikes having a chance to win. Right now, Ducati, Honda, and Yamaha all can fight for the top spots which isn't so bad - I don't know many forms of circuit racing that isn't heavily performance balanced where more than three manufacturers are competing for a win. I was actually talking to my friend about some posters on this site - you guys that have watched MotoGP for many years or even decades.

He and I quite like watching MotoGP (I started watching racing during the 1997 F1 season, and he since 2004, anbd we both began watching MotoGP last year) I suppose when you go from watching F1 - which is long and often drawn out - to watching MotoGP - which is short and faster paced - you enjoy the bikes quite a lot. I imagine you guys got to see some absolutely thrilling racing then if this stuff is boring for you.

[Dani Filth]

try here 2000 Philip Island
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQqu...eature=related in 6 parts .. there's also Mugello there
unfortunately it's in italian ..

[chunder]

I guess the issue is that as Vale says electronics now plays a far larger part than it did even 5 years ago.

If that package is working well then an average rider can suddenly be propelled to the front placings.

It still wont mean he will win but if you look now all the guys like the Pramacs, Gresinis are all on a similar pace, in years gone by they would be just as spread as the front men. All about crappy electronics

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Dani Filth

try here 2000 Philip Island
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKQqu...eature=related in 6 parts .. there's also Mugello there
unfortunately it's in italian ..

Well, the racing is great obviously, but actually picking the 2000 phillip island gp is actually a negative argument for what the topic starter was trying to say:

Qualified 2000: 18 (3 others raced, but did not set a (fast enough) time
Qualified 2010: 17
Time difference 2000 p3-p16: 2.0 seconds
Time difference 2010 p3-p16: 2.0 seconds

The 500cc 2-strokes back in the 80's and 90's had the advantage that privateers could buy a 2nd hand (or even 3rd hand) bike, qualify and race. That changed during the years, when at one point honda was the main supplier and you had to lease an bike.

I like the strategy behind the new rules. If they manage to attract independent suppliers, keep the rules stable for years and teams are allowed to keep the bikes after they paid for it (so no leasing) then imo you will see the return of 'privateers' or at least the small teams.

[Roninho]

Originally Posted by Ultimo

Let me preface what I'm about to say by saying I'm a relative newcomer to MotoGP. I hear a lot of people here complaining about the small grid, but to be honest, I don't really mind. The TV coverage barely shows anything outside the top 10 as things stand - so even if there were larger grids, it wouldn't be shown. I don't like that the industries - racing, and motorcycling at large - have taken significant hits, and I suppose I'd prefer more bikes than less, but I don't see it as a problem from a TV spectator's point of view.

I agree that most of the tv coverage is focused on the top riders, and righfully so. I do mind it that there are less riders though. More riders means more close batlles, overtaking, crashed and basically more spectacle. For the live-audience it is imo a big plus if you have 10 riders more on the grid, i just cannot imagine how it would be if you'd have like 30 competitively (so 1 and 30 within like 3-4 seconds a lap) motogp bikes on the grid. And also not unimportantly it could give a whole bunch of riders (and nations) a chance to get on the grid as well and promote the sport in those countries.

[chunder]

To be honest if all the riders had similar bikes the racing would not necessariyk be closer, just a few guys would be able to stay on the pae and you wouldnt get guys running away

In one-make series you still get spaced out races, talent does that, that's why they are a good idea!

Regarding factory bikes, well you have had to lease them since the year DOT. And to a certain extent with the 250 and 125 top bikes too. The NSR250 was never bought, and the factory Aprilia's hardly change for years. Mcwilliams was using an old Harada frame in about 2003!!

[Andy77]

Originally Posted by chunder

In one-make series you still get spaced out races, talent does that, that's why they are a good idea!

But where is engineering talent and advantages because of it supposed to fit in there?
Or is it a too tough thing to have these days?

[chunder]

I think if you want good close racing as a sort of talent soptting class like the old RD350 cup or the Virgin R6 Cup that can work.

IN top linbe racing though there has to be more scope for the engineer, but in terms of chassis engineering, engine tuning and perhaps things like wheel mouted disks, girder forks, hub centre steering, All that has gone now after the 80's and 90's.

Now the only ingenuity is with electronics which simply makes the tyres last longer and the riders job easier, hence why riders like McCoy, Crafar, Rossi and even Stoner hate it so much, as guys who are simply noy as talented as them can be almost as quick.

It is the same as Mick moaning in 95/6 that guys like Okada, Aoki, Criville could beat him, they just nicked his settings! Its a real Honda problem and the main reason they lost Rossi in 2004!

[djb]

Originally Posted by chunder

like the old RD350 cup

stop, you've got me pining for the fjords. I wasn't partlcularly talented so there was nothing to spot with me, but ye ol RD LC was fun as heck to race, and an excellent beginner bike on track and a fricken gas to overtake or outbrake 550s or 750s.