Home  
Site Partners: SpotterGuides Veloce Books  
Related Sites: Your Link Here  

Go Back   TenTenths Motorsport Forum > Single Seater Racing > Indycar Series

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
Old 2 Jun 2016, 23:48 (Ref:3646706)   #1
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
IndyCar Series Race Lengths

I didn't want to derail another thread, but this has flitted in and out of my mind from time to time for a while now. I sometimes find the relative lengths for various Indy Car races (most all of them road races) to be a bit odd.

Some of them, I've specifically heard, are due to fuel windows, and trying to limit the chances of mileage runs, which goes out the window anyway with an ill-timed caution. (Honestly, they'd give a more effective impression of efficiency if they had slightly more fuel aboard, and made fewer stops as a result; it would also widen the fuel window, limiting the initial "problem".)

I also bring this up because, two road courses are being added that kind of blow things out due to their high average speeds. Unless there is a lot of caution, going just 200 miles or so at Road America or Watkins Glen is going to go by much quicker than the same distance at Mid Ohio, Barber, and especially, Sears Point.

2016 Race Lengths:
1. St. Petersburg, 110 laps (198 miles)
2. Phoenix, 250 laps (255.5 miles)
3. Long Beach, 80 laps (157.44 miles)
4. Barber, 90 laps (207 miles)
5. Indy Roval, 82 laps (199.998 miles)
6. Indianapolis, 200 laps (500 miles)
7. Belle Isle, 2x70 laps (2x164.5 miles)
8. Texas, 248 laps (368.28 miles)
9. Road America, N/A, *best guess* 50 laps (202.4 miles)
10. Iowa, 300 laps (262.5 miles)
11. Toronto, 85 laps (149.175 miles)
12. Mid Ohio, 90 laps (203.22 miles)
13. Pocono, 200 laps (500 miles)
14. Watkins Glen, 60 laps (204 miles)
15. Sears Point, 85 laps (202.725 miles)

I think you will agree that there are at least a couple of these that just seem kind of strange. Given the track type, nature, and average speed, something like this seems more sensible to me.

Proposed Race Lengths:
1. St. Petersburg, 95 laps (171 miles)
2. Phoenix, 250 laps (255.5 miles)
3. Long Beach, 85 laps (167.28 miles)
4. Barber, 88 laps (202.4 miles)
5. Indy Roval, 82 laps (199.998 miles), or 80 laps (202.72 miles) *using 2.534-mile layout*
6. Indianapolis, 200 laps (500 miles)
7. Belle Isle, 75 laps (176.25 miles)
8. Texas, 252 laps (374.22 miles)
9. Road America, 60 laps (242.88 miles)
10. Iowa, 300 laps (262.5 miles)
11. Toronto, 95 laps (166.725 miles)
12. Mid Ohio, 90 laps (203.22 miles)
13. Pocono, 200 laps (500 miles)
14. Watkins Glen, 70 laps (238 miles)
15. Sears Point, 76 laps (181.26 miles), or 81 laps (204.12 miles) *using 2.52-mile layout*

I hope I'm not totally alone in this train of thought, and this should give an idea of where I'm coming from/leaning.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 3 Jun 2016, 02:23 (Ref:3646721)   #2
Salamus
Veteran
 
Salamus's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2011
Canada
Ontario
Posts: 1,638
Salamus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSalamus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSalamus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the gridSalamus should be qualifying in the top 3 on the grid
Just make all the races 2 hours in length, with the exception of Indy and Pocono.

You're guaranteed a 2 hour show and cautions play a little bit of a bigger factor, which makes strategy more interesting.
Salamus is offline  
Quote
Old 3 Jun 2016, 17:52 (Ref:3646928)   #3
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
I didn't particularly care for that route when ChampCar did it in 2004 and 2007.

That's one area where I maybe even like having just that small measure of predictability. Also, when I was looking up the ChampCar stats last night, the 2008 Singapore GP popped into my head, which I didn't need. (I know, F1 goes by distance also, but at Singapore, they're almost always right up against it as to whether they'll get to the two-hour time limit or the 61-lap distance first.)

Also, I don't want the series botching their calculations, and not allotting enough fuel to the teams to make the distance if the race goes green for two hours.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 4 Jun 2016, 09:06 (Ref:3647066)   #4
Yannick
Veteran
 
Join Date: Apr 2006
Posts: 2,097
Yannick should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
To be honest, I've never thought about this before and gladly left this topic to the TV window experts.

Lengthening Long Beach and Toronto as you have suggested, would be a good idea, I guess.

I don't think any event needs to be shortened, especially not Barber. In past years, the best action has taken place there in the final laps so there is no need to change this winning combination.

As far as I know, Texas is a 600 km race for marketing reasons, and they are not likely to give up their "figurehead figure" either.
Yannick is offline  
Quote
Old 5 Jun 2016, 02:07 (Ref:3647286)   #5
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
Texas was modified for the IRL in 1997 by widening the tri-oval with extra asphalt on the inside; this reduced the track length from 1.5 miles to 1.485 miles. So, that change was just for the purpose of correcting the race length to the actual, advertised distance of 600km.

I was sort of evening out the race distance for Barber compared to Mid Ohio. Also, I was hoping to possibly take fuel just a bit more out of the discussion for Barber.

Yeah, it can kind of give the impression that Long Beach and Toronto are in a demoted position, when they're the shortest (even street) races on the calendar by a noticeable margin.

I don't think St. Petersburg warrants such a long race, by distance, especially when comparing it to the other temporary circuits. Furthermore, it's not much faster than Long Beach, and certainly no quicker than Toronto. It's slower than Belle Isle, and speaking of which, it seemed like there was as much on-track overtaking shown today at Belle Isle (in 164.5 miles) as I saw on the coverage of this year's St. Petersburg race (covering 198 miles).

If Gateway returns, I think the old CART race distance should work alright: 236 laps (299.72 miles).
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 8 Jun 2016, 14:22 (Ref:3648237)   #6
NaBUru38
Veteran
 
NaBUru38's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Uruguay
Las Canteras, Uruguay
Posts: 10,352
NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!NaBUru38 is going for a new world record!
St Pete and Sonoma are a bit too long, I agree. They should be 170-180 miles.

Checking the CART stats, Watkins Glen at 200 miles is fine, but Road America should be 220 miles.
NaBUru38 is offline  
__________________
Nitropteron - Fly fast or get crushed!
by NaBUrean Prodooktionz
naburu38.itch.io
Quote
Old 8 Jun 2016, 18:40 (Ref:3648271)   #7
fieldodreams79
Veteran
 
fieldodreams79's Avatar
 
Join Date: Oct 2007
United States
The Dirty South
Posts: 12,043
fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!fieldodreams79 is the undisputed Champion of the World!
I am pleased that this series realizes that only a select few of their events need to be 500 miles or laps. Another national touring series could learn from that.

These changes look relatively minor, so makes sense to me.

Texas should have 0 miles which equals 0 kilometers, imho.
fieldodreams79 is online now  
__________________
"Knowing that it's in you and you never let it out
Is worse than blowing any engine or any wreck you'll ever have."
-Mike Cooley
Quote
Old 8 Jun 2016, 19:12 (Ref:3648283)   #8
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
NBU38, I'm glad to have agreement on that first point.

As for Watkins Glen, the CART records, at least what I've found, are kind of useless. The 1979-80 races were on the short course. The 1981 race was on the long course, but thus far, I cannot find a record of what the fastest race lap was from that event. This is of note, because Qualifying was clearly in the wet, as the Race average speed was faster than the pole. Also, the Scheckter Chicane at the Esses (installed where Francois Cevert crashed in 1973) may have still been in use for that 1981 event.

The 2009 pole is the fastest lap modern IndyCar has put up at the Glen, a 1:28.597 (138.154-mph). That was with the old Dallara, which wasn't even designed to do road racing. The DW12 will be faster. Also, outside of serious fuel saving, race pace is faster relative to qualifying than it used to be.

Since I expect Watkins Glen to be close in speed to Road America, it just made sense to have the two run a similar race distance. And who wouldn't want a few extra laps at those two crown jewels of American road racing?

FoD79, I'm happy you're okay with the minor adjustments.

I'm not exactly thrilled with Texas myself, but I think a real, intermediate oval belongs on the IndyCar calendar. The trouble is, they've even raised the banking at one end of Kentucky, so I don't necessarily see an option out there that's "better" than Texas. Hopefully, they pin the cars down a bit more than they have been doing with the downforce level the last few times, so they can actually race each other more down there this year.

Last edited by Purist; 8 Jun 2016 at 19:21.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 24 Jun 2016, 19:19 (Ref:3654931)   #9
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
Well, Dixon said they turned 1:24s in testing at Watkins Glen, so as I thought, it's right up there with Road America. For reference, around the Glen (3.4 miles), a time of 1:25.000 equates to an average speed of an even 144mph.

And my guess is confirmed; the Road America race this Sunday is 50 laps.

As for Salamus' suggestion, at the sort of average speeds we saw in 1999 and 2000, the Road America race would run 68 laps in two hours (275.264 miles).
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Old 24 Aug 2017, 20:48 (Ref:3761423)   #10
Purist
Veteran
 
Join Date: Dec 2003
United States
Wichita, Kansas, USA
Posts: 5,892
Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!Purist is going for a new world record!
Well, for 2017, they increased Long Beach from 80 to 85 laps. Road America also was extended, from 50 to 55 laps.

I haven't heard anything, but I'm hoping they might have decided to lengthen Watkins Glen from 60 to 65 laps after the speeds seen there last year.
Purist is offline  
__________________
The only certainty is that nothing is certain.
Quote
Reply

Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump

Similar Threads
Thread Thread Starter Forum Replies Last Post
Race Lengths Edmonton Sportscar & GT Racing 18 3 Nov 2004 22:07
Race Lengths Adam43 Formula One 19 18 Sep 2003 03:09
Exhaust Lengths Chris Griffin Racing Technology 5 5 Sep 2002 13:37
Measuring circuit lengths redshoes Racing Technology 9 13 Mar 2002 05:59
Track lengths quintin cloud Motorsport History 3 26 Jul 2001 14:58


All times are GMT. The time now is 12:02.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.11
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, vBulletin Solutions Inc.
Original Website Copyright © 1998-2003 Craig Antil. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2004-2021 Royalridge Computing. All Rights Reserved.
Ten-Tenths Motorsport Forums Copyright © 2021-2022 Grant MacDonald. All Rights Reserved.