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Old 5 May 2019, 11:43 (Ref:3901969)   #6676
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Originally Posted by Dyson Mazda View Post
There were actually quite a few factory supported entries in LMP during the early 2000’s. In the 2001-02 LM24 Bentley, Chrysler, Cadillac, MG, and Panoz all fielded entries in the top class. However, none of them were very good, could not touch the R8, and the OEMs lost interest quickly (and didn’t see the point of trying to compete). The R8 really killed LMP globally for about 5 years until Porsche & Acura committed to the ALMS and Peugeot to Europe. I guess we are very much in a similar time period now in the ACO series. I forgot how bad things were and then just looked at the LM24 grid in 2006 when Corvette Racing finished 4th overall.
You really touch on an important point here and I think the rules makers should implement a mechanism to actively avoid such scenarios, by requiring at least two major OEMs to commit for each new rules cycle.

If manufacturers fail to sign up in advance, they should be limited to being engine-suppliers and lending tech-support for privateers for the duration of the rules-cycle, i.e. at least three years.

In my opinion, the chance of being locked out from Le Mans for a considerable time, would probably force the manufacturers' hands and get them to commit. And even if it didn't, we could get a good competitive field of privateers like in mid-2000s LMS, without anyone steamrolling the opposition.
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Old 5 May 2019, 11:53 (Ref:3901976)   #6677
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Well the problem is have they left it too late? How many will sign up?

A lot of it depends on how many sign up and I’m not sure how many manufacturers have the interest. Certainty the mid 00s were a great time in sportscar racing, with so many different makes entered in it, even if we had the inevitable Audi dominance at LM, as the rest of the time it was close for the title
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Old 5 May 2019, 18:28 (Ref:3902037)   #6678
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Racer.com has an article on dpi 2.0 and how many interested parties there were there. I don't know if the connection is actually there but the author is trying to paint a picture of that being a replacement instead of hypercar. I'll believe it when I see it, same with hypercar, tbf.
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Old 5 May 2019, 21:32 (Ref:3902079)   #6679
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Reads like an opinion piece based on the fantasy of the writer rather than anything to do with reality
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Old 5 May 2019, 22:39 (Ref:3902085)   #6680
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It is from Pruett, who has been saying "DPI to Le Mans" forever.

I'm pretty close to jumping on the bandwagon, though.
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Old 6 May 2019, 00:17 (Ref:3902098)   #6681
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Reads like an opinion piece based on the fantasy of the writer rather than anything to do with reality
I think you meant to say the fantasy of whoever decides Pruett gets a press badge.
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Old 6 May 2019, 03:20 (Ref:3902125)   #6682
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Well I think it's unlikely to happen, so hopefully they can find a solution in time
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Old 6 May 2019, 05:53 (Ref:3902145)   #6683
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Leupen laments the delays.

https://www.autosport.com/wec/news/1...now-ridiculous

https://sportscar365.com/lemans/wec/...-rules-action/ (mostly same quotes)

Reveals that they might sign up for season 1 (of the new regs) if there's a guarantee of other OEMs joining. But more than one season against Glickenhaus would mean exit.

Also says the GTE Plus idea is a non-starter for them because the Lexus is too old.

Confirms that the next working group is on May 16.
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Old 6 May 2019, 10:44 (Ref:3902188)   #6684
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Who can blame him? IIRC the hypercars is supposed to attract manufacturers back and it’s not doing that atm from what I can see. We are going nowhere for now. Hopefully the next meeting will help make progress
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Old 6 May 2019, 14:08 (Ref:3902246)   #6685
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My dream scenario for „plan b” would be something like this:
We stay with LMP (Le Mans is not just about casual road cars, is it?) and build a class which would introduce a simplified hybrid and consist of:


“LMP1 manufacturers” (maybe only Toyota at first or at all (s. below)).


“DPI manufacturers” with EOT for ICE(stint lengths, energy per lap etc) and aero “EOT” also.


Privaters from WEC and IMSA but strongly supported by OEMs which could even transform to most important part of the category.
With strong support I mean a “classic” way - at least a branded ICE with branded hybrid if not the whole car, so the factory teams would have only the advantage of in deed being the factory team.
Most importantly the manufacturer would get at least equal credit and bragging rights for the win as the team, i.e. “Rebellion Toyota wins” or something like this.
Again, it is nothing new but the cost would be lower if the OEMs wouldn’t have to fully enter and save in personel/team running cost.
Why think of some revolution, when there are solutions which are proven many times in the past and bring some manufacturer money and interest?
For me it could be perfect, cause we would stay with proper prototypes – real race cars and we could grandfather privateer LMP1s in some form and Toyota TS0xx plus some DPI with EOT and no BOP.
It could take some politics with balancing LMP1 with DPI tough.
But for me if we eventually stay only with supported privateers – it is just allright.
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Old 6 May 2019, 14:11 (Ref:3902247)   #6686
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Damian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the gridDamian Baldi should be qualifying in the top 5 on the grid
There is some noise today at SC365 and Racer.com about DPi 2.0 and Hypercar going to a possible commond rule set. It would be the current DPi with more freedom on the shape and a spec hybrid system working on the rear train.

Everything is still grey, but this path looks better.
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Old 6 May 2019, 16:31 (Ref:3902262)   #6687
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That’s encouraging. I can think of worse solutions. A fair compromise for both, with mixing series together too. At last some progress
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:01 (Ref:3902271)   #6688
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Originally Posted by Damian Baldi View Post
There is some noise today at SC365 and Racer.com about DPi 2.0 and Hypercar going to a possible commond rule set. It would be the current DPi with more freedom on the shape and a spec hybrid system working on the rear train.

Everything is still grey, but this path looks better.
That path is even more dead than GTE+
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:04 (Ref:3902272)   #6689
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Well time will tell, hopefully something good will come of it
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:25 (Ref:3902283)   #6690
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crooky should be qualifying in the top 10 on the gridcrooky should be qualifying in the top 10 on the grid
With the desperate situation the top class is currently in, could they not just buy themselves so more time by scrapping LMP1 and making LMP2 / DPi the top class?

There's an abundance of these cars that are ready to go and the old issue of them not being spectacular enough I don't think applies as much anymore. At Spa this year the top LMP2 cars are as quick if not a little faster than the 2012 LMP1s and that's including the original R18 E-Tron.

Then they can decide something a bit 'fancier' for the years ahead without comprising on the racing in the years it's going to take to get the new regulations to really bed in.
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:39 (Ref:3902291)   #6691
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A customer spec hybrid system that can be plugged into any car is an idea that has been around this forum for 3-4 years at the very least.

I feel like there's quite a bit of propaganda with this one. If you open up the rules a bit and add hybrids, that's closer to LMP1 than it is DPi. MP has been known to claim GTLM and GTD are IMSA own classes because they copy and pasted rule books. All very weird reading it.

If it's not BoP'd and anyone could build a car, then this is fine for a top class. And if it was faster than the current DPi, then it'd solve the lap time issues and give the classes a good spread again.

But certainly, customer chassis and customer spec hybrids are not a new idea. It's just new in this context.
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:41 (Ref:3902294)   #6692
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And copied from the ACO again
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:44 (Ref:3902296)   #6693
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I think they are in a rock and a hard place atm. They have to find a solution that’s right for everyone. Of course I can also understand Toyota’s frustration too. But as I said at least they are starting make progress
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:47 (Ref:3902297)   #6694
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What's the deal with wanting to force the cars to be hybrid anyway? In all the racing series it's been in (F1 and LMP1) it has only served to force the costs of participating up to unprecedented levels.

Only the biggest car companies can afford to run them and this has created a gulf in performance between the top cars and the chasing pack. Not good for racing.
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Old 6 May 2019, 17:50 (Ref:3902300)   #6695
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What's the deal with wanting to force the cars to be hybrid anyway?
It seems to be the price for getting major manufacturers to sign up, because they can claim the technology is more relevant to their road cars, since hybrid/electric is the future.
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Old 6 May 2019, 18:11 (Ref:3902303)   #6696
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What's the deal with wanting to force the cars to be hybrid anyway? In all the racing series it's been in (F1 and LMP1) it has only served to force the costs of participating up to unprecedented levels.

Only the biggest car companies can afford to run them and this has created a gulf in performance between the top cars and the chasing pack. Not good for racing.
I understand totally what you're saying, but that's the idea of the customer hybrid - at a cost cap, anyone can run it. Playing devils advocate, the ACO could argue that the Hybrid years of Toyota v Audi v Porsche were the best years of top class racing Le Mans based series have had for decades. And they'd probably be right.
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Old 6 May 2019, 18:36 (Ref:3902314)   #6697
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I understand totally what you're saying, but that's the idea of the customer hybrid - at a cost cap, anyone can run it. Playing devils advocate, the ACO could argue that the Hybrid years of Toyota v Audi v Porsche were the best years of top class racing Le Mans based series have had for decades. And they'd probably be right.
Is it short term enough though? Could we see a customer bolt on hybrid system ready for a dozen cars by Le Mans 2020? It feels like it needs to be that soon because by 2020 it will be 3 years straight of nothing close to matched competition for the Toyota's.

I agree though that it was a great time for competition when Audi, Porsche and Toyota were all fighting for the win. The only issue was that it was an exclusive (expensive) club that wasn't sustainable in the long term.
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Old 6 May 2019, 18:40 (Ref:3902317)   #6698
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Is it short term enough though? Could we see a customer bolt on hybrid system ready for a dozen cars by Le Mans 2020? It feels like it needs to be that soon because by 2020 it will be 3 years straight of nothing close to matched competition for the Toyota's.

I agree though that it was a great time for competition when Audi, Porsche and Toyota were all fighting for the win. The only issue was that it was an exclusive (expensive) club that wasn't sustainable in the long term.
I agree with you on the time frame. If one was to be quite blunt about it - maybe the the ACO hadn't spent 3 years arsing about with a new proposal every lunch time then maybe we'd have time to implement a solution that everyone has been proposing for...3 years or so.

The time-frame is a self-induced problem.
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Old 6 May 2019, 18:41 (Ref:3902318)   #6699
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The height of Group C and IMSA GTP lasted just a few years in the late '80s and early '90s, and for much the same reasons. Excessive pandering to OEMs/car makers, and having a go big or go home mentality with tech when cost efficiency/overall ROI should've been a major goal.

And as Akrapovic and crooky just said (and I've been saying for a while now), the ACO coming up with major rules rewrites for LMP1 every 3 years or so isn't healthy, either.
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Old 6 May 2019, 18:43 (Ref:3902320)   #6700
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I understand totally what you're saying, but that's the idea of the customer hybrid - at a cost cap, anyone can run it. Playing devils advocate, the ACO could argue that the Hybrid years of Toyota v Audi v Porsche were the best years of top class racing Le Mans based series have had for decades. And they'd probably be right.
But was Hybrid being on the Toyota, Audi and Porsche the reason it was a great period, or was it Toyota, Audi and Porsche contesting? If they were there and committed to being there and not hybrid would it not have been as good?
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